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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
...many Calvary Chapel pastors believe that the Roman empire never died completely and is still around to this day. They do believe it will be revived but just as the church is still around, just in need of revival, so to the Roman empire is still around but in need of being revived.


I can see why people would say this. So many of our patterns of life and government are really just developments of the Roman patterns. We are talking 'western democratic mores' I think.

I tend to think more of 'spirits' than of 'territories'. I am not using 'spirits' in the sense of demons but of 'trends'. I have some theories of how these pictures connect but they are only theories.

It sounds as though 'Calvary Chapel pastors' think more in terms of future events while without closing the door to future events I tend to see much New Testament prophecy has having been fulfilled. eg Matt 24:1-22 I would see as fulfilled during the Revolt of AD 66-73. That does not mean there will not be future developments along the same lines. History does seem to repeat itself. But it does mean I don't see the need for as much future fulfillment of prophecy as do many.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/14 12:41Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Who is our war with, the Roman Empire? If that is our war, who is the strategist behind its assault on us? Or is the assault on God. Who is the one that keeps all this, in at least keeping all that is against God from overwhelming the Kingdom of God? Is this God's Plan or is it the Roman Empire we are fighting against?

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Who is the General of wickedness in high places, and who is the One that keeps him in Check and from winning this wrestling war.

Ephesians 6:13-18 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

It seems that the one that is the One that is in the offensive position of this war is the Sword of the Spirit, using the word of God to keep the arrows of fire from killing the saints. The full Armour of God is Christ Jesus and The Holy Spirit. Armour is what keeps and restrains the assault on not only the saints but the kingdom of God on this earth which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. We are the temple being protected from the evil one, it is the Holy Spirit who is in us forever that restraineth the evil one by believers putting on what we already have. Christ in us our life and the Holy Spirit in us our power in that life.

I think we need to look at 2 Thess again and see that He that restraineth is the Holy Spirit, not the Roman empire or even the Roman Catholic Church in whom the restrainer keeps in check, until The Holy Spirit takes away the restraining power of the Body of Christ in individual believers, collectively His Church being offered to the Father, when Christ comes for His Bride.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/15 2:26Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Who is our war with, the Roman Empire? If that is our war, who is the strategist behind its assault on us? Or is the assault on God. Who is the one that keeps all this, in at least keeping all that is against God from overwhelming the Kingdom of God? Is this God's Plan or is it the Roman Empire we are fighting against?

I think this is perhaps another way of saying 'if a house is divided against itself'. That's a legitimate question but God does sometimes use his enemies to further his purposes.

[color=0000ff]“For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.”
(Hab 1:6 KJVS)[/color]

God may well have used Communism to suppress the extremes of the anti-semitic Russian Orthodox Church. It is certainly true that as soon as Communism toppled, the Russian Orthodox church republished the Protocols and began to stir antisemitism again.

So God sometimes uses one evil power to restrain another. Babylon (the Chaldeans) restrained the worst excesses of Assyria. The Persians brought God's rebuke upon the Babylonians etc The Roman Empire was a vicious police state but God used it to subdue the world as part of His preparation for the gospel.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/15 8:42Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
The Christians of the next century were united in their conviction that Paul was referring to the Roman Empire.


Please explain if this is true.

doesn't this mean that the man of sin, "the son of perdition" is the "restrainer himself" because he is in or with the newly formed Roman Empire which is the Ten horns, and he comes from the ten being the little horn.

why would the newly formed Roman Empire restrain the lawless one from being revield in the first place if they are one, since you are saying that the Roman Empire(the Ten Horns) must be "taken out of the midst" by or with the little horn?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Ref. Dan 7:7,20,24
:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

 2006/9/15 14:31Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Then for the Christian why the exhortation of Paul?

Ephesians 6:10-13 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Christ is our breastplate of Righteousness. He that is in us is the only one that is Righteous. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Christ is our girder of truth? Christ Jesus by our Anointed Teacher the Holy Spirit.

All the Armour is Christ and why are we told to put it on? Who has won our war? Who is that restraineth and keep us in truth? The power of the Holy Spirit who is God's Worker on this earth in this present age. Christ's work is finished, He is now the Seed, born again in the believer, and The Blessed Comforter, The Holy Spirit Teacher is our power that restraineth and makes the Armour work, and when He that is in this capacity is taken up with the Church, in the believer, that restraining power that is for those in Christ is not needed anymore. The Holy Spirit will be here for those that don't take the mark of the beast to give them strength and assure them when they are beheaded, lest not any person would be a witness for Christ in the great tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/15 16:29Profile
Dougmore
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Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Hi Phillip,

At this time I would say that I believe that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer. But through this discussion I'm taking a look at the harlot as being the end times false church. We know that Rome is going to have some dealings in the end and that the Vatican is in Rome, on seven hills. That makes far more sense to me than Israel being the harlot. Philologos and I agree that the Romans have something to do with it only our times are opposite. I think that Philologos is closer to what I think, (could be wrong), than Logics interpretation. No offence to Logic.

bro Doug

 2006/9/16 11:34Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Dougmore wrote:
We know that Rome is going to have some dealings in the end and that the Vatican is in Rome, on seven hills. That makes far more sense to me than Israel being the harlot.


Explain how it makes far more sense for Rome than Israel being the harlot with all the proof scriptures I gave when there is no proof for Rome frome the Bible.
Please, I am serious, I can not understand this reasoning.

I can understand that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer, but not the above.

 2006/9/16 11:57Profile
Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Logic said,

Quote:
I can understand that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer, but not the above.



Sorry Logic. I did not intend to say that the restrainer is Rome (past/future), Israel, or even the harlot herself. First, I'm not even sold that the harlot is in any relation to the restrainer. I believe that the harlot is a individual apart from others given in prophecy. Same as the restrainer is its own individual. I see no lock down tight argument for the restrainer being Israel just because they were a harlot and are still acting like one.

And as for Rome being (or was) the restrainer, that would make me have to say that large parts of Revelation and Matthew 24 have already passed. Which I don't. Granted that the destruction of Jerusalem and the seven churches were in that time, I view most prophetic things to still come.

This is what I said concerning another possible restrainer,

Quote

At this time I would say that I believe that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer. But through this discussion I'm taking a look at the harlot as being the end times false church.

I still held that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer but that the false church in Rome could be the harlot. I see the restrainer and the harlot as two different beings.

This was one of my first posts dealing with this subject.

Quote

Nevertheless there is a "He" in the text. (2Thess.2:7) This He is neuter in gender. I believe that Paul is speaking of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. He is restricting many little antichrists existing today (John 2:18) and the final antichrist. In verse six, the Holy Spirit is called to' ketechon (3588, 2722), or "that which withholdeth." This uses the neuter gender and corresponds to the phrase to' Pneuma (3588, 4151) "the Spirit," also found in neuter, (John 14:26). Verse seven uses ho' katechon, "he that letteth," denoting that the antichrist cannot do anything without the Spirit allowing.


Its the only position I hold to at this time. I cant base a position on Rome being the restrainer because I believe that they never fully left and we still see the power of Rome emerging more and more. Not less. also if Rome was the restrainer and they actually did fall completely them when they are revived in the last days that would mean the restrainer had returned. I don't get that because it sounds like a contradiction.

In Christ, bro Doug

 2006/9/16 15:18Profile





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