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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

"""Furthermore, the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time.
So my point is that the Holy Spirit isn't gone, but only stoped hindering."""

This is where it gets sticky. When the Church is taken out, the reason the Holy Spirit was sent to be in the believer will no longer be needed. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Those that are saved in the tribulation will be saved by not taking the mark of the beast and the return to the Law of God by the two witnesses. Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

They will not need the Holy Spirit to teach them The Christ that is in them. That no longer applies to salvation at that time, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. When they loose their heads for Jesus Christ, that is the beginning of their salvation by works which in seven years will be started again by the King sitting on the Throne of David and he will rule with a rod of Iron not by His Spirit in the believer. That is when The Word must be written in their hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31-35 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, (((I will put my law in their inward parts,))) ((((and write it in their hearts;)))) and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/5 2:17Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
this is not contrived, it is a very stiff translation, taken to the most literal point.


It is not the translation that I was addressing but the interpretation. There is no justification for your interpretation that this is referring to the 'work' of the Holy Spirit as Restrainer. It is the person of the Restrainer that is going to be removed.

ο κατεχων (ho katechOn) is the present participle of 'katechO' preceded by the definite article in the masculine. This signifies 'the restraining one'. The construction is used of John Baptist on occasion meaning the 'that baptizing one'. It focusses on the the identifying characteristic of 'that one'.

In 2 Thes 2:7 the sentence reads
"the restraining one is restraining until He (the restraining one) become out of the midst." 'become' is subjuctive so we could translate it..."until the retraining one may become out of the midst."

Perhaps to make my challenges clearer I ought to say that I am not convinced that 'the restraining one' is the person of the Holy Spirit at all. Consequently I don't have to struggle with the notion of conversions taking place with the Holy Spirit no longer present to accomplish them.

Your interpretation chooses to conclude that the Restrainer has not left the building but has only stopped working in this particular way. I can see why you would need to say so to support your view but it does not come from any exegesis of the passage.

You have created a perfectly circular argument based on your preconceptions of Tribulation and Rapture. You then say "the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time."



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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/5 5:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Christinyou on 2006/9/5 7:17:02 posted:

Quote:
"""Furthermore, the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time.
So my point is that the Holy Spirit isn't gone, but only stoped hindering."""

This is where it gets sticky. When the Church is taken out, the reason the Holy Spirit was sent to be in the believer will no longer be needed.



Sticky? This is one of the places where this kind of dispensationalism becomes a positive swamp of difficulties. The idea that a later dispensation still awaits in which they will be 'saved by their works' is astonishing. There never was nor will be a dispensation in which people are 'saved by their works'.

Are you saying that the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah does not begin until the Holy Spirit has been 'taken away'? How can such things be? Ezekiel's exposition of the New Covenant says quite specifically that God's Spirit will be given to New Covenant believers.“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [u]And I will put my spirit within you[/u], and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
(Ezek 36:26-27 KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/5 5:51Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

It seems to me that both the view of the Restrainer being the Holy Spirit or the Church is impossible. Reason being is that scripture seems to leave the warfare that takes place in the heavenlies to the Host of Heaven. Ephesians 6 re-reminds us that this warring continues to go on.

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. (Daniel 10:12-14)

This is a familiar case, but I think it may shed light on the topic as it deals with the latter times.

Then he said, "Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. "However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who [u]stands firmly[/u] with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

The reason why it seems to me that Michael fits 'better' is that [i]The Man of Sin[/i] appears to be a leader that will lead the world as if he were God Himself. The nature of the fighting in Daniel's times was with these 'princes' of nations. What do these princes do? They jostle and fight for power. This is serious warfare. It is a very real warfare also. There are hints of its goings on all over the scriptures. When Michael disputed about the body of Moses or when the angel smote Herod in Acts 12:23. When the Host of Heaven appeared II Kings 6:

Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host; and they came by night, and compassed the city about. And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, a host with horses and chariots was round about the city. And his servant said unto him: 'Alas, my master! how shall we do?' And he answered: 'Fear not: for they that are with us are more than they that are with them.' And Elisha prayed, and said: 'LORD, I pray Thee, open his eyes, that he may see.' And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw; and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

I don't have the mind power to put it all together, and I'm not about ready to go out in left field, but it seems to me that what is being 'restrained' is Satan and his bunch and that the 'restrainer' is Michael. That is not to undermine the working of the Holy Spirit or the Church; but God seems to have an order to these things. I have often thought that Satan will be cast out of Heaven and into the earth at some point. For now his carryings on take place in the heavenlies. But at some point he will be cast into the earth. And from earth he will be cast into the bottomless pit and from the bottomless pit into the lake of fire.

Satan is on a downhill slope. Since he said he would ascend into the Mountain of God and God said he would cast him into the sides of the pit- he has been going down! down! down!. Pride goes before destruction and fall. He is cast from the presence of God (3rd Heaven) and then cast from there into the 'heavenly realms' (Eph 6). From the heavenlies into the earth (Revelation 12:7-10). This would appear to me to be the point in which the Antichrist is revealed. He is then bound with a chain in Revelation 20 for 1000 years (whatever that means) and then 'loosed for a season'. From there fire from God comes down to destroy those deceived and the Devil goes into his final judgment to fulfill Isaiah 14:

5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. [u]He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.[/u] The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, [u]Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?[/u] Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. [u]Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.[/u] They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/9/5 9:00Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: The restraineing

It appears that many of the reformers believed that the restrainer was the pagan Roman emperors and their whole system of government which severely persecuted early Christians. The man of sin was already present with false doctrines as we can clearly see from the epistles but he was restrained from quickly spreading because of the persecution. Once heathen government adopted Christianity then the false doctrines and practices were unrestrained.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2006/9/5 10:01Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

InTheLight on 2006/9/5 15:01:22 posted:

Quote:
many of the reformers believed that the restrainer was the pagan Roman emperors and their whole system of government


At this stage of my understanding, I have much more sympathy with this view.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/5 10:34Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
InTheLight's: The reformers believed that the restrainer was the pagan Roman emperors and their whole system of government...



This seems to work out from a historicist view, yet I have trouble working it out as it essentially pits the enemy against himself (Satan in conflict with Satan). No Kingdom divided can stand, etc.

Quote:
At this stage of my understanding



I like this attitude. I think it is dangerous to become dogmatic when it comes to the details of eschatology. The Jews messed up horribly about the prophecies of the First Coming of Christ because of their dogmatic views. They knew the 'when' (as some would say) but not the 'what' of His coming. We seem to know much of the 'what' but not the 'when'. A person's own personal desires (will) weighs heavily on their interpretation of end time prophecy. I have often asked folk about it and they seem to always conclude something like, "I just can't believe the Lord will allow His people to suffer, etc."

I just say be ready for what ever happens.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/9/5 11:48Profile









 Re: Grannie's at the LIBRARY

Good job Robert ...
exegete Daniel Chpt. 12:1 .... The 'stuff' starts at Israel.

If it were the Holy Spirit, verses 'like' Joel chpt 2 would be impossible.

The Saints are winning many to righteousness in "those days". Daniel 12:3.

My only difference in opinion here is based on GOD'S Word .... that we "shall" have these days "revealed" to us. Daniel 12: 9 and 10.
John 16:13, etc, etc,.
We cannot "compute" the number of the Beast without "understanding" and knowledge of the Word and "the Spirit of Prophecy" (Rev 19:10).

That is what "differentiates" The Elect from the "guessers" and Last Days Debunkers (scoffers).
Remember it says [b]IF[/b] it were possible - even the Elect would be deceived.

Yes, I'm more convinced of Post-Trib more than ever in my life.

Welp, cheerio for now .... Not to worry ... I only get to the Library about once every three months or so. :-D


Just be leary of those who come to you with the oxymoron - professing to be "Christian-Sociopaths".
Yes, as unbelievable as that may sound ... that has happened to me twice. Two "sisters in the 'Lord' " .... one from over Minn. and another from across the pond told me this in person. I'd advise they both look up the definition of both. No such creature.
In my Bible ... it says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake and that this latest phenomena, of saying one can be 'both' is part and parcel of the Strong Delusion that - yes - we are already IN.

Blessings to all that "LOVE HIS APPEARING" !

GLORY TO THE LAMB !!!

Thanks to whomever it may concern for this chance to 'visit'.


P.S. Read Isaiah 17, 30, 31 and 48.


Peace to all.

In Him ~
Annie
;-)

 2006/9/5 14:31
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
this is not contrived, it is a very stiff translation, taken to the most literal point.


It is not the translation that I was addressing but the interpretation.

Would you say that it is the anti-christ himself that is holding back since verse 8 seems to put it in context?
Quote:
Your interpretation chooses to conclude that the Restrainer has not left the building but has only stopped working in this particular way. I can see why you would need to say so to support your view but it does not come from any exegesis of the passage.

I bet you don't even know my view of my preconceptions of Tribulation and Rapture.; if you do, i am willing to be persuaded if you can make sence to an opposing view.

BTW, pre-wrath trib. :-o

Nice to see you back GrannieAnnie!

 2006/9/5 21:09Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: by Phiologos


""Sticky? This is one of the places where this kind of dispensationalism becomes a positive swamp of difficulties. The idea that a later dispensation still awaits in which they will be 'saved by their works' is astonishing. There never was nor will be a dispensation in which people are 'saved by their works'.""

Would you call not taking the mark of the beast and giving their head for a witness to Christ to attain their salvation a works. Especially in believing the two witnesses of the testimony of God. They believing now they must die for the witness of Christ. Ultimate works.

No death, but life for those that are in Christ before the tribulation. Life in Christ for pre-trib Christ ones. Death for a witness to Christ in the tribulation. We don't have to die to be saved, we are saved by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our death does not save us but His Life does.

The are the works of the tribulation saints.
(1) FOR THE WITNESS (or for testifying)
OF JESUS,
(2) AND FOR (proclaiming)
THE WORD OF GOD,
(3) AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST,
(4) NEITHER HIS IMAGE,
(5) NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN (or on) THEIR HANDS.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/6 5:43Profile





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