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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 The restraineing

[b]2Thes 2:3-6[/b] [color=990000]Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first[/color] (the great falling away, defection from truth), [color=990000]and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
[b]:4[/b] and exalts himself above, every so-called 'god' or object of worship, and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God.
[b]:5[/b] Do you not remember that while I was still with you I used to tell you all this?
[b]:6[/b] And now you know [b]what[/b] restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time.[/color]
If we read corectly, in isn't a He or who, it is a what;
definite Article, Accusative case, Singular, noun

The Restrainer is: κατέχωv "katechōv" (kat-ekh'-own)
Strongs #2722
neuter, Verb, Preasent, active, participle, Accusative case, singular, noun
So, until the falling away, the restraining will hold down the son of perdition.

Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.

This Scripture in Timothy is talking about the same time Paul calls the great falling away or the defection from truth in [b]2Thes 2:3
1Timothyy 4:1-3[/b] [color=990000]Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[b]:2[/b] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[b]:3[/b] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.[/color]
This is now happening with more intencity these days than ever before.

The verse in 2Thes 2:3 is corparate and 1Timothyy 4:1 is personal.
Apostasy or a falling away is greek: "ἀποστασία" (apostasia) ap-os-tas-ee'-ah Strongs #646
Feminine of the same as G647(divorce); defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.

This whole theam is talking about leaving Truth which our faith is based upon.
[b]2Thes 2:10-12[/b] [color=990000]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[b]:11[/b] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie:
[b]:12[/b] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/color]

Now that we now it isn't a who, but a what, we are to know the seasons.
[b]Matthew 16:3[/b] [color=990000]And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?[/color]
Jesus was shameing then for not knowing the season.
Therefore, it is very important that we know this so we may not be like the five out of the ten virgens that werte foolish, and now we must be even more diligent to hold fast;
Job 27:6, 1Thes 5:21, 2Timothy 1:13, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 4:14, Hebrews 10:23, Revelation 2:25, Rev 3:3

Hold fast is the same greek word for "Restrainer"

Again, it is the season of the apostacy, which we are in right now.

 2006/9/1 16:28Profile
Dougmore
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Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re: The restraineing

Before I would go to deep in a discussion, may I ask if your a Pre, Post, Mid, or Watch triber? Doug

 2006/9/1 21:13Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
may I ask if your a Pre, Post, Mid, or Watch triber?


Doug, you forgot to include one: Pantribers: They believe that it will all pan out in the end.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/9/1 21:27Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re:

Dougmore wrote:

Quote:
Before I would go to deep in a discussion, may I ask if your a Pre, Post, Mid, or Watch triber? Doug

This has nothing to do with my point.

2Thes 2:3-6 says what it says no matter what view any one holds.

 2006/9/2 0:56Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re: The restraineing

Logic on 2006/9/1 21:28:16

Quote:
Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.



At least one of us believes that the great apostacy began during the days of the apostles themselves. Have you explained what you think 'the restrainer' is/was and why you think it is no longer 'the restrainer'? Perhaps I missed it?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/2 5:03Profile
Dougmore
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Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re: The restraineing

Nevertheless there is a "He" in the text. (2Thess.2:7) This He is neuter in gender. I believe that Paul is speaking of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. He is restricting many little antichrists existing today (John 2:18) and the final antichrist. In verse six, the Holy Spirit is called to' ketechon (3588, 2722), or "that which withholdeth." This uses the neuter gender and corresponds to the phrase to' Pneuma (3588, 4151) "the Spirit," also found in neuter, (John 14:26). Verse seven uses ho' katechon, "he that letteth," denoting that the antichrist cannot do anything without the Spirit allowing.

The Spirit seems to be the restrainer.

The apostasy, that I believe is vary much present, could be this attack of humanism on the church. It seems more and more that all Americans are "Christians" but are filled with a pride full arrogance. Pride is on the increase and with it humanism is on the rise. People want "Gods wonderful plan" for this retched life and not the one to come. Doug

 2006/9/3 8:19Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Dougmore on 2006/9/3 13:19:32 posted...

Quote:
The Spirit seems to be the restrainer.


I doubt that Logic will agree with your intepretation. He wrote...
Quote:
Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.


That would mean that the Holy Spirit had already been 'taken away' 2 Thess 2:7


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/4 6:05Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Most of us agree that the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" is now taking place, therefore, I belive that "what is now restraining" has been made currant and is not restraining any more.


That would mean that the Holy Spirit had already been 'taken away' 2 Thess 2:7



[b]2Thes 2:7-8[/b] [color=990000]For the mystery of lawlessness is already working. Only when the Present Restrainer may be coming out of between[/color]
[b]the Present Pestrainer[/b]: Verb, Preasent, active, participle, nominative case(marks the subject of a verb, as opposed to its object), singular, masculine

[b]may be coming[/b]: Verb, 2nd-aorist(indicates completed action in the past),middle Deponent(denoting that the subject acts on or for itself,), subjunctive(implying hypothetical action or condition), third person, Singular

[b]:8[/b] [color=990000]And then will be unvailed the lawless one whom jesus shall be consume with the spirit of His mouth and will render usless by the advent of His presence[/color]

In verse #7, The Holy Spirit is the One in charge of the timimg in all things, therefore, the Holy Spirit is to move a way from holding back all this from happening.
HE is not totaly taken away, ofcourse, but only in that area of His work.

 2006/9/4 14:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Logic on 2006/9/4 19:58:33
posted:

Quote:
In verse #7, The Holy Spirit is the One in charge of the timimg in all things, therefore, the Holy Spirit is to move a way from holding back all this from happening.


I am not sure why you have supplied all the parsings. Your interpretation seems rather contrived to me. The plain sense of this verse is that the Restraining One will himself/itself be taken away. There is no sense of taking away a function of the Restrainer but rather the removal of the Restrainer himself. These verses are saying that the Lawless One will not be revealed until the Restrainer is out of the way.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/4 18:26Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: its not contrived

philologos wrote:

Quote:
I am not sure why you have supplied all the parsings. Your interpretation seems rather contrived to me. The plain sense of this verse is that the Restraining One will himself/itself be taken away. There is no sense of taking away a function of the Restrainer but rather the removal of the Restrainer himself. These verses are saying that the Lawless One will not be revealed until the Restrainer is out of the way.

this is not contrived, it is a very stiff translation, taken to the most literal point.

[b]2Thes 2:7 το' [/b]the [b]γὰρ[/b] for [b]μυστήριον[/b] secret [b]ἤδη[/b] already
[b]ἐνεργεῖται[/b] is operating [b]τῆς[/b] the [b]ἀνομίας[/b] lawless, [b]μόνον[/b] only [b]ο[/b] the [b]κατέχων[/b] one detaining [b]ἄρτι [/b] at present [b]ἕως[/b] till [b]ἐκ[/b] out [b]μέσου[/b] of the midst [b]γένηται[/b] it may be coming.

For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now until coming out of the midst.

Furthermore, the holy Spirit cannot be totaly taken away because there will be people still getting saved in and after that time.
So my point is that the Holy Spirit isn't gone, but only stoped hindering.

 2006/9/4 20:32Profile





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