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K_DAY
Member



Joined: 2006/7/28
Posts: 144
Ann Arbor, MI

 interesting Calvinism quote

Here is a pretty well-written I came across the other day concerning Calvinism. I am sure it is not a flawless argument, but it seems fairly intuitive.

"To say that God hates sin while secretly willing it, to say that God warns us not to fall away though it is impossible, to say that God loves the world while excluding most people from an opportunity of salvation, to say that God warmly invites sinners to come knowing all the while that they cannot possibly do so--such things do not deserve to be called mysteries when that is just a euphemism for nonsense."



It is, of course, still a mystery to me...

 2006/8/28 20:07Profile
lovegrace
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Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re: interesting Calvinism quote

Hmm, I'm not Calvinist. but, that sounds like a movie. Think about it. Director's have a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy' and someone to save.

In God's movie there is a 'good guy' = Jesus
A 'bad guy' = Satan and his angels
someone to save = the church

Then when you watch the movie, everything is set up perfectly. And everyone does choose their roles, but it is 'divinely' nitted.

Sounds cool to me :-P

 2006/8/28 23:07Profile
humble
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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 31
toronto, ontario

 Re: interesting Calvinism quote

As far as I know Calvin beleived in so called double predestination. That means some souls(most of them) are predestined for eternal demnation and some(very few) for eternal salvation. I can NOT find this teaching in scriptures. Although it is still a greatest mistery and mirical as how the sinner turns and repents and consequently be born from above by The Holy Spirit, we do know that The Father draws every man to Christ Jesus, and "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6,37 KJV)


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levan giorgadze

 2006/8/28 23:34Profile
murdog
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Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Humble,

Romans 9:14-24.

Murray


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Murray Beninger

 2006/8/29 1:46Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: interesting Calvinism quote

Hi K_Day, how are you?

I think that something I'm learning about God along the way is that He is sometimes surprising and even shocking. I think too of this passage of scripture where the Apostle writes


Quote:
..the foolishness of God is wiser than men..



And I think that is something we all risk stumbing at; subjecting that which God has revealed under our own senses and faculties of reason and so forth. I don't mean to say you or anyone else has done it though it is a danger for us all.

I'd like to share something else in response to the first line of this qoute that you gave us, not to offer a defense of any particular doctrine, or to enter any debate, but rather to further make the point above.

The author of the qoute seems to suggest that because God hates sin, He could not secretly will it. But then brother, I think of the Lord Jesus. How precious is He, how lovely, how dear to the heart of God is His own beloved Son, yet was He not predestined to be made sin and for the death of the cross?

I think of the lines of a song by the popular group [i]Selah[/i] which say

Quote:
God predestined that His Son should die, yet He still created man.



I see in this the same thing as what the author suggests is not possible.

Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/8/29 7:39Profile
W_D_J_D
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Joined: 2006/1/13
Posts: 119


 Re:

The majority of people like to say "pre-destined this" or "pre-distened that"........

Firstly: "Was i predestined to be an arminian"?

Secondly: "Did God predestine me to sin"?

Thirdly: "Where Adam and Eve predestined to fall"?

It kind of reminds me of the people who say the "devil this" or the "devil that". You know the folk......

"If you sneeze in some church's you have a demon. Goodnight! They must multiply like frogs them demons."
-Leonard Ravenhill

"You mean to tell me that my God predestined all those babies to be flushed down the john(toilet)? Come on man!"
-Leonard Ravenhill

People usualy quote the first part of this verse......but rarely the second part.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Remember we are predestined to be holy and blameless!! Thats your predestination!

"Love is only love when one has the ability to do the oposite and yet chooses other wise"

God bless yall!

 2006/8/29 7:54Profile
K_DAY
Member



Joined: 2006/7/28
Posts: 144
Ann Arbor, MI

 Re:

Quote:
And I think that is something we all risk stumbing at; subjecting that which God has revealed under our own senses and faculties of reason and so forth. I don't mean to say you or anyone else has done it though it is a danger for us all



Yes, I hear you loud and clear Chris. I find myself particularly vunerable to this since I am an engineer and kind of logically minded. I find sometimes I mistake conviction with intuition...




Quote:
Romans 9:14-24.



Ah, there it is. I know SI has been down this road many times before, but does anyone know how a armenian would explain this mysterious section?

-Kevin

 2006/8/29 8:27Profile
lovegrace
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Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:
"Love is only love when one has the ability to do the oposite and yet chooses other wise"



WDJD, please explain to me what dictionary that you've been reading. I know that is a common proverb among alot of Christians.

Again I'm not Calvinist, but these are the definations that I saw.

# a strong positive emotion of regard and affection;
# any object of warm affection or devotion;

To say love is 'the ability to choose the opposite' isn't really the defination. The meaning really says 'to desire something more' or 'devotion'.

Just causing you to think a little.
Joshua (Love ya brother)

 2006/8/29 22:17Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7471
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:

Romans 9:14-24.


Ah, there it is. I know SI has been down this road many times before, but does anyone know how a armenian would explain this mysterious section?



I was wondering when someone will post this reference!! :-?

Is this not the strongest reference to support Calvinism? But this does not answer your question.

I do make this suggestion: God will use anyone, godly or pagan, to fulfill his purpose: no one goes to 'waste'. Most us are aware how persecution effects Christians, e.g. Do we not see here how God uses ungodly people to advance his kingdom? Is this not what he did with Pharoah? My Bible School teacher used to explain that God in his forknowledge knew the decisions man would make and that is why he can hardened his heart even more. Pharoah did it first.

This explanation helped me, but I must admit some of these verses still baffle me because it does not square up with the rest of the scriptures...as I understand it. But that is OK, it will not effect my salvation...perhaps someday the Holy Spirit will give me perfect understanding on this question.

My opinion...
ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/8/30 11:04Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

Ah, there it is. I know SI has been down this road many times before, but does anyone know how a armenian would explain this mysterious section?



I believe the armenian explanation is that he is talking about people groups- Isreal and the Gentiles- not individuals. He is just using Pharaoh as an example.

I believe that is the response most armenians would give.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/8/30 23:21Profile





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