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witnesswear
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 14
Scotland

 eternal life - physical or not

HI there, i was just reading an article from a guy and he says this.

"According to the first three chapters of Genesis, after God created man He put him on probation. God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, commanding Adam not to eat of it. It was a test, a simple test of obedience.4 If Adam had obeyed God, he would have enjoyed health, prosperity, harmony with the rest of creation and endless life.5 But Adam disobeyed God. As a consequence, he received the penalty, or punishment, for his disobedience."

then he goes on to say.

"God never intended eternal physical life for Adam, and Adam no doubt would have been “changed,” and given an eternal spiritual body, after his probation period was over, if he had proved himself faithful."

so, can anyone clear this up for me, did God intend for adam to have a physical body forever or not.

yours in christ

dave g


_________________
Dave

 2006/8/23 13:51Profile
witnesswear
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 14
Scotland

 Re: eternal life - physical or not

hello all, ive noticed a few people watching this one but im still in need of help with an answer.

could someone help me on this question?

yours in christ

dave g


_________________
Dave

 2006/8/24 9:32Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

It's an interesting thought to me that Adam wasn't intended to have a physical body, but it doesn't seem clear in the Scriptures. Could it be true? I guess. But it doesn't seem clear.

Here's a thought for you...

Did Jesus come in the flesh? Was His flesh divine?

What about on the Mount of Transfiguration when, it seems, even his flesh shone with glorious bright light? And didn't the same thing happen with Moses even under the old convenant? Didn't their very skin shine with glory?

How can you distinguish "physical" from "spiritual"? Perhaps these distinctions aren't so obvious.

Here's a verse that seems relvant here:

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit." (Romans 8:11)

If you check deeper into the original language, especially into the word "life" there, I think you'll discover some interesting things. What kind of "life" will He give to our bodies?

Is "physical" the same as "mortal"? What when the mortal is swallowed up in the immortal?

 2006/8/24 14:14Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: eternal life - physical or not

Dear Dave,

There are some thing we will not know until our knowledge has been made full and complete in Christ at our final transformation. This is one of those questions that really has no definitive answer in scripture. Would Adam have lived forever in the flesh if He did not sin? Only God knows.

I believe God's intention from the beginning is that we were to be united as one with God. Our life comes from being united with Him. Our death comes from being seperated from Him.

I would like to make a comment on a few other things this person said however.

Firstly, the writer calls this a test. How impersonal is a test? If your parents tried to test your love, wouldn't you be offended? This was not a test. God was honoring Adam and Eve by giving them a choice. He gave them free will, and then gave them the right to choose. God could have easily removed the tree of Knowledge from the garden so that they could never sin. Instead, God gave them a choice. God knew what they would choose. However, He gave them the choice in order to honor them and love them.

In the story of the prodigal son told by Jesus, the father did the same thing. The son asked for his inheritance and took off. The father gave it to him. The father let the son have his choice. The father could have stopped the son. Instead, he let the son go.

Secondly, is death really a punishment?

The second death is a punishment. The first death was a consequence. God gave Adam and Eve a choice that had consquences. If you eat off the tree, then you will surely die. He was trying to tell them, "If you eat off the tree, then you will be seperated from me. And without me, you will die." When they ate from the tree, God then went looking for Adam. Why? Did not God see Adam? This is because Adam had changed. Did God change Adam? No. Adam changed due to sin. God no longer recognized Adam. Instead, Adam had become something entirely different.

Death was not a punishment. It is a consequence. Paul described it as a wage in Romans 6. We earned death. A punishment is something we deserve.

Think of this parable.

John 9:1-3
1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

The disciples were focused on this idea of the a person getting what they deserve. They were trying to figure out, "Why did this man deserve this?" Jesus quickly points out that it had nothing to do with deserving. Rather, it is was done so that God could give in love. It was done so God could be glorified.

Death is a consequence. And because of it, God may be glorified through it. God can work in us to save us. He can give us life. God does not want anyone to die.(Ezekiel 18:32) From the beginning, death was our own choice. We chose death. We chose to seperate ourselves from God. When Satan tempted Eve, he said, "You will be like God." This was Satan's way of saying, "You will be free. You won't have to obey Him. You can do things your own way, how you want to do it. You can be your own God."

The sin of Adam and Eve was to trust in things other than God. God told them, "If you eat of the tree, you will surely die." He didn't say, "If you eat of this tree, I will kill you." God was warning them. Did they trust in God? Did they heed His warning?

Their faith failed them. They didn't believe in God. Instead, Eve gave into the temptation. She trusted herself more than God. And Adam trusted in Eve more than God. Adam was standing right there when it happened, and he still took the fruit from Eve.

They put themselves first, without putting God first. And so, they sinned. From the beginning, our sin has been a problem of love. We were created to love God. We have failed. We have failed miserably. The number one commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul. Adam and Eve did not love God. If they did, they would have trusted God. They would have had faith in God. Eve would have told the Devil, "Flee Satan, for God said I would surely die."

Hope this helps,

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/24 17:14Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:
"Firstly, the writer calls this a test. How impersonal is a test? If your parents tried to test your love, wouldn't you be offended? This was not a test. God was honoring Adam and Eve by giving them a choice. He gave them free will, and then gave them the right to choose. God could have easily removed the tree of Knowledge from the garden so that they could never sin. Instead, God gave them a choice. God knew what they would choose. However, He gave them the choice in order to honor them and love them.

In the story of the prodigal son told by Jesus, the father did the same thing. The son asked for his inheritance and took off. The father gave it to him. The father let the son have his choice. The father could have stopped the son. Instead, he let the son go.

Secondly, is death really a punishment?

The second death is a punishment. The first death was a consequence. God gave Adam and Eve a choice that had consquences. If you eat off the tree, then you will surely die. He was trying to tell them, "If you eat off the tree, then you will be seperated from me. And without me, you will die." When they ate from the tree, God then went looking for Adam. Why? Did not God see Adam? This is because Adam had changed. Did God change Adam? No. Adam changed due to sin. God no longer recognized Adam. Instead, Adam had become something entirely different.

Death was not a punishment. It is a consequence. Paul described it as a wage in Romans 6. We earned death. A punishment is something we deserve."

Blake,
That was so good and clear. Enlightening.

 2006/8/24 18:07Profile
witnesswear
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 14
Scotland

 Re:

yeah, thanks blake, that has certainly lifted some scales from my eyes.

yours in Christ

dave G


_________________
Dave

 2006/8/25 6:08Profile









 Re: eternal life - physical or not


Hi witnesswear,

Quote:
eternal life - physical or not

I'm wondering if you would venture the definition of 'physical' which you have in mind, bearing in mind also, the resurrection body of Jesus as described in John's gospel?

Thanks.

 2006/8/25 6:34
witnesswear
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 14
Scotland

 Re:

Hi there,

from what i can make out the guy who wrote the book was talking about Adam and Eve.

I would take this to be a mortal body without sin, so i dont know how you would describe the bodily form in that sense seeing as only Christ was without sin yet still fully human.

I would think that Adam would also have been without sin but fully human (but not God).

does that help

dave g


_________________
Dave

 2006/8/25 7:48Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I would say that we will have a physical body in heaven, so the intent was that God would have children with Him; body, soul, and spirit.

Jesus came in a physical body to the earth after His resurrection, Thomas placed his hand in the Lord's side. Jesus ate fish with them, as well. The Scriptures say that we 'shall be like him.' I take this to mean we will have physical bodies that are glorified in heaven.

Jesus said to fear him who can 'destroy both soul and body in hell.' So not only will Christians have bodies in heaven, so will the damned in hell.

Plato said that Adam was only spirit until he sinned, then he was given a body (which was all bad) because of sin. This in turn was promoted by Mani who attempted to insert the doctrine into the church. Unfortunately, Augustine grabbed onto this view that flesh is bad, and had always been bad (even though God called Adam's flesh 'very good' in the garden).

The above view, that the flesh is and has always been bad is, or course, heresy. Adam was made flesh, and will be flesh with us in heaven. So, yes, we were meant to have flesh from the beginning.

So I would disagree that Adam was never intended to have an eternal physical body. He was physical to begin with, and would be physical whether he was condemned or saved, just as we are to be physical, as well as soul and spirit, in the next world.

If you would like a full presentation on why the view that Adam was originally spirit only is heresy, listen to Paris Reidhead's sermon: 'The Hidden Things of God, Part 1":

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1973&commentView=itemComments


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/8/25 13:39Profile









 Re: eternal life - physical or not

Quote:
I would disagree that Adam was never intended to have an eternal physical body. He was physical to begin with, and would be physical whether he was condemned or saved, just as we are to be physical, as well as soul and spirit, in the next world.

I agree with your thesis here, and was interested in Plato's thought on the matter. I think some would disagree with the word 'flesh' associated with heaven, but, if we take Paul's exposition from the middle of Romans 8, it is fair enough, especially as 'immortality' (1 Cor 15) simply means that the body is not subject to death (any more).

Tyndale has this marginal note in Romans 8:

'We are saved by hope: that is, we hope to be delivered out of the corruption of our bodies into the glory that Christ now is in: and therefore faint not in our tribulations.'


I think we have to remember this man was hunted down till he was eventually burnt at the stake, and so when we think we're 'faint'ing at 'our tribulations', there is a need for 16th century perspective on our 21st century thinking.

In other words, what kind of tribulation, these days, qualifies us to be cast upon hope alone, that we should be resurrected in Christ?

Just a thought....

 2006/8/26 12:48





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