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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Second these comments from Jeff:

Quote:
Secondly, I have a brother in Christ who has emigrated from Cuba. Before Christ, his family was participating in the Santoria (sp) religion. From his testimony Satan is as real today as he was when Jesus and His disciples were dealing with 2000 years ago. Do not underestimate the adversary. Job is a perfect example.



Last year we had one of our missionarys teach on spiritual warfare, he showed us some video he had taken of a 'priest' (or what ever terminology they use) of this religion (Santería).
It's muddy mixture of African and European Catholicism. A brief intro here; [url=http://www.education.miami.edu/ep/LittleHavana/Santeria/Leonidas_1/leonidas_1.html]Santeria[/url]
The things he shared with us were not fantastical, but real. His humbleness, experience and emphessis on Holy living gave impetus to the truth of what he was saying. As Jeff stated: "[i]Satan is as real today as he was when Jesus and His disciples were dealing with 2000 years ago. Do not underestimate the adversary.[/i]
Nor should we overestimate him.


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Mike Balog

 2004/1/29 7:03Profile
nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

There are so many little issues mixed into this thread. It is interesting to see them all interact and relate to each other. We have a question about church government structure, dominionism, power of Satan, and other miscellaneous topics.

Does the church government issue seem as linked to the national government issue to everyone else as it does to me? Some believe the power should be with the people, some believe in having a bishop/monarch. It seems that in either case you have men (whether individually or collectively) making decisions that will sometimes be good and other times not so good. A good bishop is better than a bad presbytery and vice versa. I believe that the US will soon enough prove that there is not one superior form of government that can stand against an arbitrary level of corruption.

To the person completely convinced of dominionism I'd say the same thing as I would to the person totally convinced that salvation is by works alone. Go for it! Work your fingers to the bone! In the case of the works-based salvation person they will find as Luther did that it won't work and they will more likely be converted after a whole-hearted attempt than by reasoning. In the case of the dominionist if they are right they did well and if they are wrong the only thing they have lost is some hope and a wrong belief. The only caution to throw in with that is that they had better be trying to prepare the world by individual salvation rather than by userhing in some type of system or government. Any time a Christian spends a lot of time on government he is being diverted from the true mission.

The power of Satan is a very big problem in Charismatic circles because they put so much emphasis on his autonomy and act as though there is a duality between God and Satan. It is far more biblical to view Satan as subordinate to God. He is allowed to work under certain constraints. Anything he does has been by permission of God. God promises us trials and tribulations but He also promises they are for growth and will never be more than is bearable- there is always a way out. Any view that puts Christians in constant fear of Satan is unbiblical. At the same time, I do not believe that we have the power to command him or bind him or anything like that either. If people are binding him who keeps letting him go? I believe this power was primarily Christ's and only given on certain occasions to the disciples/apostles. I believe that our power against Satan is making disciples and when they are saved they have the Holy Spirit and can submit themselves to God, resist him and he will flee from them. How is it that we know God can use Satan for His purposes in our life but yet we also believe we have the power to cast him away? The fear we accord Satan is to be the same as we accord any man. They can only take away the body- God alone can damn the soul. Satan would love nothing more than getting us to waste our time trying to pray him away from every nook and cranny of every building in the world while his permission to roam comes from the Soveriegn God himself!

Satan has power, but God has infinitely more. He can tempt me but I can overcome the temptation in the Spirit. He can lie to me but I have the Truth of the Holy God in my heart. He can accuse me but I have assurance of my forgiveness. As long as I'm saved and fighting the good fight what do I have to worry about?

 2004/1/29 8:33Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

crsschk wrote: Nor should we overestimate him.

Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. A believer's security lies in Jesus. However, those of the world have no security. For Satan is a roaring lion seeking those who he may devour. The testimony of my Cuban brother, spoke to his uncle being a warlock. Demon possesion and the manifestations destroy men.

I have read the book of Job many times, it teaches that Satan can control men as well as the weather. I do not have a firm grip on the relationship between God and Satan. But I know that once God has prepared us, He will send us to battle Satan for the lives of lost men.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against
[b]principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickeness in the heavenly places."[/b] Ephesians 6:12

Also, "We know that we are of God, and [b]the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one."[/b] 1 John 5:19

Also, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twentyone days; and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia." Daniel 10:13

Also, "Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 1:9

Maybe we underestimate Satan because we are sitting on the bench.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/29 8:35Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

My comment: Maybe we underestimate Satan because we are sitting on the bench.

I include myself in that category.

I follow an organization, Gospel for Asia. Check out the website. It has various testimonies pretaining to this current track on this thread.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/29 10:14Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

I have just listened to about half of the Leonard Ravenhill interview which others have mentioned on this website. I have also read two of John Bevere's books. I believe the first, Hearts Ablaze, (?) and the second, The Fear of God (?). I may have messed up the titles somewhat. Both Ravenhill and Bevere stress that the only way to know a true christian is one who seeks to be pure. Ravenhill quoted Tozer, something to the effect, "When I see a man take up the cross on his back I know he isn't coming back." Ravenhill mentions 2 Corinthian 11:12-14. In this, Ravenhill says many of his contemporary preachers may be doing the works of Satan. The only way to distinguish, does he preach holiness. Please forgive me I am trying to paraphrase something I listened to at 5:00 AM this morning. In the two books that I have read of Bevere's, he sounds alot like Ravenhill in both Scripture and experience.

I trust Ravenhill, but I am uncomfortable in the spirit sometimes with Bevere. In terms of Satan, as Ravenhill pointed out, many who believe they are christians have been deceived!

Again I say do not underestimate the work of Satan.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/30 6:38Profile









 Re:

Thank you Chanin, very thorough explanation.

 2004/1/30 8:51
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

I am in complete agreement with Nobody, actually I almost like how that sounds! Kidding... ;-)

Quote:
At the same time, I do not believe that we have the power to command him or bind him or anything like that either. If people are binding him who keeps letting him go?



:-D That's good.

Like Mr. Hanegraaff's line "He is a lion on a leash, the length of which is determined by God."

Rookie:

Ravenhill also was fond of saying "Are you known in hell?"

If we are not getting some resistance, some harrasement maybe we do have some splinters in our posteriors...


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Mike Balog

 2004/1/30 18:27Profile
AhmedBenNoyel
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Joined: 2004/1/22
Posts: 6
Mount Isa Australia

 Re:Resurrection and past topics

Thanks Chaim for your summary of dominionism; i suspected as much. I personally lean towards a great revival in the church, that shuns the world's systems (as we - i - so rarely do at this point in time. I thank God that He is convicting me of that and pushing me towards closer, holy life with Him.) which will resault in a great persecution of the church. yet another twist... help me if i am wrong.

Jeff, i can only accept that your spirit feels uncomforable with Mr John Beveres' teachings. I will endeavour to search out more tried and true teachings.

Thank you to everyone whom has posted. I found it very interesting some were even convicting. :)

Ben


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Ben Huxham

 2004/2/1 2:30Profile





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