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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
God has commanded we go into ALL the world and take the gospel to ALL... (to answer Philogos, we do it because we are to be obedient. But I believe there is an underlying reason why the command was given. I dont think God would command us to do something for absolutely no reason.


Can you think of any scriptural justification for this? God did it for a very good reason. He wants His Son to receive the glory for what He has accomplished. This is why the Spirit came to make us 'witnesses to Christ' not 'soul-winners'.

Now I expect to get into terrible trouble for the last sentence but please don't misunderstand me. I am talking about 'God's reasons', not about whether or not we should be preaching the gospel.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/8/18 11:51Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: Billy Graham says unbelievers may be saved without faith in Jesus Christ

Dear Krispy,

I don't think your above statement proves Billy Graham is rejecting the message of Jesus Christ. Salvation can only come through Christ. This claim came from Christ Himself.

I believe what Graham is trying to say here is that it is not his place to judge. The final judgment belongs to God, and we cannot be the judge of person. God judges a person according to thier heart, for it is the heart that is the problem. We are made righteous by the cleansing of our heart, the renewing of our Spirit. Only God can see into a person's heart.

In a conversation once, a woman tried to trap me into making a judgment call. She said to me, "If a girl in Africa who lived a good life dies without ever hearing about Jesus, is she going to Heaven or Hell." My answer was the same. I said, "I am not the one to judge." I cannot make that judgment call. She then said, "Yeah, but you said Jesus is the only way to God." I then explain to her that Jesus made this claim, not I. Indeed, this is truth. Jesus is the only way to God. However, I cannot be the judge of any one person. If that person did not repent of their sins and accept Jesus, then yes they will goto Hell. However, who am I to say whether a person has done that? Who am I to say the girl in Africa did not do this? For all I know, Jesus could have come to her just before she died in a vision disclosing the entire gospel, and she believed. We don't know all the ways in which God works.

We do know that God has chosen to share this glorious work with us. We play a role in people's salvation. I believe with all my heart that if there is a person in the world who has the right heart condition, God will raise up a person to meet that person where they are. We have heard many stories of missionaries who have traveled far and wide to reach an unreachable person.

Dr. Graham said, "He said he gave his Son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have." Jesus has been offered to everyone. It doesn't matter how the world sees them. God sees inside. The Lord knows. As such, judgment is left in the hands of God. I can not speculate who is saved or who is not. I do not know who has truly accepted Christ or not. I only know that I have.

When it comes to sharing the gospel with people, I never assume their salvation. Instead, I ask: Are you a Christian? Are you a good person? Are you going to Heaven? Should God let you into Heaven and why? Do you believe in Christ? Who is Christ?

Depending on their answer, I show them what the bible says, and tell them of how Jesus has changed my life. However, we should always be careful to say who is going to Hell. We just don't know. We don't see what God sees. Only God can make such claims.

Besides, Jesus said we shouldn't throw pearls to swine. If a person's heart condition is not right, then we shouldn't bother. A repentant heart is one who is ready to hear. I can always tell if a person is ready to hear the good news about salvation if they openly admit they are in or deserve to go to Hell. When I hear such declarations, I eagerly wish to tell them the good news of salvation.

Just some thoughts,
In love,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/18 12:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
Sorry. No scriptures taken out of context need be submitted for argument in this instance..They won't wash.



Ummm... not sure whats out of context here. Dorcas was making a point that those who never hear the Word of God are not accountable before God. I know thats a generalization of what she said, but the point is clear.

I differ with that because:

1) God has commanded we go into ALL the world and take the gospel to ALL... (to answer Philogos, we do it because we are to be obedient. But I believe there is an underlying reason why the command was given. I dont think God would command us to do something for absolutely no reason.)

2) The Bible makes it clear that the only way to God is thru His Son, Jesus Christ. Why is that? Because we are ALL law breakers.

and... 3) Proof that everyone person on the face of the earth is a law breakers is this:

Rom 3:9-12 [i]What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, [b]There is none righteous, no, not one[/b]: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.[/i]

This shows EVERYONE's need of a Savior. And that means EVERYONE.

So... before you accuse someone of taking scripture out of context, be sure your reading the posts in context. I dont get bothered by much, but I take scripture very serious and I do the absolute best I can to be sure that I do not take scripture out of context, or twist it, or anything like that. Thats very near and dear to my heart. I'm not claiming perfection, but I take every precaution I can to assure that I dont do that.

Having said that... I love ya, brother.

Krispy



Then it must be that an awful lot of good people who live faith based lives of righteousness, in God, will go to hell regards of not ever hearing the name of Jesus. Is that what you believe?

 2006/8/18 12:20









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Why send missionaries out into lands where they have never heard?


Do we send out missionaries so that the lost may be saved or because God has commanded us to go into all the world and make disciples?



You sound like me. How come? Who you reading?

Orm

 2006/8/18 12:23









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
God has commanded we go into ALL the world and take the gospel to ALL... (to answer Philogos, we do it because we are to be obedient. But I believe there is an underlying reason why the command was given. I dont think God would command us to do something for absolutely no reason.


Can you think of any scriptural justification for this? God did it for a very good reason. He wants His Son to receive the glory for what He has accomplished. This is why the Spirit came to make us 'witnesses to Christ' not 'soul-winners'.

Now I expect to get into terrible trouble for the last sentence but please don't misunderstand me. I am talking about 'God's reasons', not about whether or not we should be preaching the gospel.



You sound even more like me. Now I'm really curious.

:-D

 2006/8/18 12:25









 Re:

Read the responses... the only response I have is that perhaps we ought to call all the missionaries home.

Krispy

 2006/8/18 13:04









 Re: Billy Graham says unbelievers may be saved without faith in Jesus Christ

Krispy,
Pastor Graham, in my opinion distilled the whole gist in this statement:

Quote:
"Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that



I read thru the Bible, and right now I'm finishing up in Revelations, and praying while I read: "help me understand Lord", cause that dear Book, Revelations, is such a mystery. I ask the Lord, "help me divine what You mean Father".

I'm a fool, and my mind is so small.

As I finish Revelations, I believe that I shall re-start at Matthew, instead of going back to Genesis, as I want to read and re-read several times the Gospels, I want to breathe them in.

On another note, ain't you right on top of starting football coaching? Remember you gotta keep them boys hydrated...lol.

My son's thing is little league baseball, and as you know we're done for the year.

God bless you. and remember dear brother, Only God knows.

bartle

 2006/8/18 13:18









 Re: Billy Graham says unbelievers may be saved without faith in Jesus Christ

Hi Krispy,

Quote:
Let's assume for a moment that your assertion is correct, Dorcas... I would have to ask this question: Why send missionaries out into lands where they have never heard? Are we not condemning many to hell by doing this?

Might I remind you all I did was quote Paul? You disagree with him?

Quote:
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

So, you don't really believe that Jesus was the second Adam, and the whole human race was atoned for when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world? Nor, that the whole human race was in Christ being reconciled to God by His blood, regardless of when they lived?

Paul's point is that people who obey their conscience and behave properly to one another are recognised for this by God and He's the Judge. I don't have a problem with that, or with Billy Graham's agreement with him.

Quote:
Noah's sons. At some point along the way these remote tribes' ancestors rejected God and went their own way.

Krispy, this is a gross assumption by you.

At some point, God chose Abraham to be the father of faith, and through whom would come the Messiah - who would bring together both His own human family and those other sons of Noah who had been excluded from certain blessings over the centuries. God at no time forgot about the Gentiles, nor withheld His blessing from them in many ways. They were no more in sin than the Jews were, when Jesus came, that is, when God became Man.

 2006/8/18 13:33
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I am posting this simply to show that this belief of Graham's is not new. One would also have to question the fact that he has an honourary doctorate from a Roman Catholic College. Also concerning would be some of his comments when pope John 2 died, especially how the pope and Mr. Graham preached the same gospel?

The following is from a transcript of an appearance by Billy Graham on Robert Schuller’s “Hour of Power,” program #1426 entitled Say “Yes” To Possibility Thinking, which was originally broadcast [b]May 31, 1997[/b]:

Schuller: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

Graham: Well, Christianity and being a true believer–you know, I think there’s the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they’re members of the Body of Christ. And I don’t think that we’re going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God’s purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name.

And that’s what God is doing today, He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven.

Schuller: What, what I hear you saying that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they’ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you’re saying?

Graham: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I’ve met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they’ve tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.

Schuller: I’m so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

Graham: There is. There definitely is.

Once again please remember that we are inspecting and evaluating the fruit and doctrine of this man, and not the man himself(personal attacks). But I find it very sad that he is the"pastor of America", when we all should be following CHRIST. Also if one would honestly ask this question - could the problems we see in modern day evangelism be a result of this man's endeavors? Did the raise your hand, pray a prayer approach originate with him? If so how much damage has been done, and how much damage will be done by men that seeking a name for themselves do the same thing? Could America be in the state that it is spiritually because of faulty evangelism influenced by this "pastor"?
There is no man nor tradition that supercedes CHRIST and HIS Gospel. It does not matter how succesful he is, or how golden throated he is, he is not CHRIST.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2006/8/18 14:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Read the responses... the only response I have is that perhaps we ought to call all the missionaries home.

Krispy



Why? Certainly they are making disciples, are they not? My question is of whom? Those who already live by convictions; by a faith in someone or those who serve only themselves or the state, believing themselves or the state to be the only god? We might call the latter group, the "Gusto Crowd", the "life only goes around once, grab all you can", crowd.

Now suppose what would happen to the former group should the missionary not be there. There is no question in my mind as to salvation being for them as well as it is for us even though they never heard His name, simply becuse of the shed Blood of Jesus. [Rom.5.1] Having said that, what would they be missing having NOT heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and the complete message concerning it? This is not a trick question I ask; I am not trying to play with your mind... just trying get you to think about the prayer of Jesus in John 17.

;-)rm :-D

 2006/8/18 14:34





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