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boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
And we don't harm the Devil by waging war against nations that have a devilish leader while killing thousands of innocent civilians, we help him. (i.e., 2003 Iraq War).




Actually, things happen in war, but look at the numbers that Saddaam and Hitler killed, millions, while Almost all of the innocent victims died in Iraq were accidents, not intentually.

Shouldnt we give those Millions of people that were killed a chance to accept christ, then just one crazy dictator.




_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 16:06Profile
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Let me ask a rhetorical question:
Can you kill someone that you love? No?
I think it's clear why Jesus said to love your enemies (Mt 5:44).

Would you consider war to be a direct result of sin? Should we then continue in sin to make things 'right' according to North American standards?

I'm not saying that wars aren't necessary. Jesus said that these things must come to pass. I for one, though, am not going to willingly trangress the Law of God because my government condones it...even if it is for national freedom ([i][size=xx-small][color=000000][font=Arial]see NLONG's post below about freedom[/font][/color][/size][/i])


_________________
Brad Wright

 2006/8/18 16:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Actually, things happen in war, but look at the numbers that Saddaam and Hitler killed, millions, while Almost all of the innocent victims died in Iraq were accidents, not intentually.


Saddam Hussein didn't kill millions. Estimates are around 20,000 people. Hitler killed around 6-7 million people, though Stalin was far worse, statistically, and killed around 18-20 million, of his own people, too.

The innocent civillians that died were not accidents. The Bush Administration knew there would be civillians caught in the crossfire that would die. Even if you still view them as accidents, all that died were due to America's choice to go to war. They don't somehow 'avoid' responsibility just because it's a war and somehow life doesn't then mean anything.


Quote:
Shouldnt we give those Millions of people that were killed a chance to accept christ, then just one crazy dictator.


Jesus said to not do harm to your enemies and to pray for them. Even an evil crazy dictator. Everyone has a chance to follow God through Jesus. It's those that were killed in the Iraqi Conflict that don't have that chance anymore.

 2006/8/18 16:26
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Check out Spurgeon's article called "Enemies at Peace". It was the Random Article a few minutes ago and I think it applies here in some ways.

(Sorry, I don't know how to make link so you'll have to manually go there)


_________________
Brad Wright

 2006/8/18 16:42Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
Saddam Hussein didn't kill millions. Estimates are around 20,000 people




Sounds like a Michael Moore estimate to me.

Check out some facts here:

Link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030404-1.html



Life Under Saddam Hussein
Past Repression and Atrocities by Saddam Hussein's Regime





Life Under
Saddam Hussein


Escaping from Iraq



A Brutal Regime


For over 20 years, the greatest threat to Iraqis has been Saddam Hussein's regime -- he has killed, tortured, raped and terrorized the Iraqi people and his neighbors for over two decades.

When Iraq is free, past crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Iraqis, will be accounted for, in a post-conflict Iraqi-led process. The United States, members of the coalition and international community will work with the Iraqi people to build a strong and credible judicial process to address these abuses.

Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions - the vast majority of them Muslims.

According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."

Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered.

Allegations of prostitution used to intimidate opponents of the regime, have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women.

Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. o The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions.

According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Refugees International reports that the "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran."

The U.S. Committee for Refugees, in 2002, estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north."

"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) o Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. o Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces.

The Iraqi regime has repeatedly refused visits by human rights monitors. From 1992 until 2002, Saddam prevented the UN Special Rapporteur from visiting Iraq.

The UN Special Rapporteur's September 2001, report criticized the regime for "the sheer number of executions," the number of "extrajudicial executions on political grounds," and "the absence of a due process of the law."

Executions: Saddam Hussein's regime has carried out frequent summary executions, including: o 4,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in 1984 o 3,000 prisoners at the Mahjar prison from 1993-1998 o 2,500 prisoners were executed between 1997-1999 in a "prison cleansing campaign" o 122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000 o 23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001 o At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001

###



jordanamo: I think that you should rethink that estimate, and who your listening to.




Also: read my past posts



_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 16:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Sounds like a Michael Moore estimate to me.

Check out some facts here:

Link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030404-1.html




I will not go into any further political discussions concerning this. It is taking us away from the matter at hand. Jesus said to love your enemies and do good to them that curse you.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 2006/8/18 17:12
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
On occasion, those authorities must bear arms: "He does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (Romans 13:4)


Quote:
Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions - the vast majority of them Muslims.


Just a thought, but could it be that God put Saddam into power to bring the sword against those who are wrongdoers against Him? Innocent in man's eyes, yes, but guilty before God.


_________________
Brad Wright

 2006/8/18 17:27Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
Just a thought, but could it be that God put Saddam into power to bring the sword against those who are wrongdoers against Him? Innocent in man's eyes, yes, but guilty before God.




Juist a thought, but could it be that God brought Bush into power to bring the sword against Sadaam and his men who caused possibly millions of deaths. Think about it. The Lord got rid of the lesser of two evils this time.

Read my previous posts on John MacArthur's Interpretation and The assembly of God's Interpretation.


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 19:07Profile
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Absolutely! I believe that ruling authorities ARE put in place by God. I'm not saying that war isn't necessary, but I am saying that as followers and disciples of Christ, we shouldn't be breaking God's commands in order to serve our CIVIL authorities. Nor should we be placing our hopes in the governments and policies of men. Are we to obey man or God?

The word 'love' that Jesus uses in Mt 5:44 is the greek 'agapao' from 'agape'. The Greek is descriptive of an act of unconditional love that Jesus even tells Peter to love Him with. While the outcome may be similar to the love that Christ commands us to love our enemies with, the motive and driving force are exactly the same. The language of Matthew 5:44 does not suggest that we are to disallow participation in war, but that participation should exclude anything that would bring personal harm.

There's been plenty of scripture quoted in the posts preceding this to support that Christians should not take up arms. Direct quotes from Paul and enforced by Jesus' own words.

Bless you my brother and may He help us ALL to hear and know His heart.


_________________
Brad Wright

 2006/8/18 19:50Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

[b]Psalm 139:21-22
Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

In John 17:9 The Lord prayed:

I pray for THEM (God's people): I pray [i]NOT [/i]for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.[/b]

Throughout history, there has been only 2 groups of people, God's people and the rest.

God's sovereignty rules, period.

I salute and am thankful to those who fight or fought for this country. I thank especially those who are God's children and whom He places in these horrible warfares, suffering or dying for this country. The rest God will judge and reward.

Before we utter 'love your enemies', perhaps we should love one another first, if not, respect each other will be a good start.









 2006/8/18 20:08Profile





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