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boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Well Murray,

If someone was about to kill your family, wouldnt you do all that you can to save them, even kill the person trying to kill your family. If you dont do it, I will.

That is irresponsible, and you can be held accountable for your inactions, to god, and our law (if you lived here in the U.S).


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 14:23Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

ooppss....

Double Post


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 14:24Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Boomatt,

I didn't say I would just stand there. I would drop them.

You and Krispy think I am critiquing you. I am not. I know nothing.

I am asking why Jesus said what he said?

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/8/18 14:32Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Just knew I'd stir up a hornets nest.

I've seen a lot of logic about Hitler and if people would attack my family, but what is a scriptural basis for killing please.

There were people who did not seek the destruction of Hitler, but valiantly hid these precious Jews in thier homes, some of which were indeed put to death for their Christian service. These no doubt are with the Lord.

As for "what if's" I find little use in role playing them. For one, few people would react how they say, so it's nearly futile to go there. These scenerio's also take out the providence and protection of God. But even if they happen, and surely from time-to-time they will, ALL things occur at God's disposal. Before someone freaks out..hear me. Job, suffered calamity upon calamity, and indeed God did not interfere. But all those things worked for the good. So, I suppose if we want to play the "what if" game, I pray I am a strong enough Christian to bear Christian fruit to the glory of the Father in such events.

How many apostles were GI's? None. How many were soldiers of the Cross? All. For all were martyred, killed, beheaded, tortured, stoned, etc, save John. And this has been the true churches testimony throughout the ages.


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/8/18 14:57Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

here is come commentary from John MacArthur concerning this subject:


"It may surprise some to learn that in the Bible, war itself is not portrayed as inherently wrong, immoral, or ungodly. There are times when God Himself authorizes and condones war as an instrument of justice.

God has given human governments the right to fight wars for self-protection and as a means of justice. The Old Testament is full of incidents where God Himself authorized war and even order the Israelites to wage war. And Scripture is clear in teaching that God still ordains government as the guardian of order and justice in society, and He still gives government the authority to punish evildoers, even by waging war, when necessary (Romans 13:1-4).

I am convinced God gave this power to governments because of His mercy. Otherwise, evil people would dominate. That is why a just war is an expression of divine righteousness. To turn away from justice in the name of peace is not an act of love; it is a refusal to love one’s neighbor as oneself. To dispense with justice would never bring any kind of peace anyway. It would simply allow lawless people to dominate the world in a deadly fashion."



Link: http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=articles&aid=231137




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Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 15:31Profile
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Amen, Murray.

Do you ever hear of any of those dear brothers and sisters who were martyred or are being persecuted today taking up arms against their oppressors? Doesn't vengeance belong to the Lord anymore?

I always read in books about authority that you are to submit to worldly authorities UNLESS they command you to sin. I believe that a Christian's duty is then to continue in submission taking the consequences of your standing for righteousness. I don't think it can be stated more clearly than 2 Cor 10:4.

Peace to you,
Brad.


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Brad Wright

 2006/8/18 15:43Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Here's another that kind of puts what I am saying in perspective, sorry for stepping on some toes if I did, I just dont like it when people tell me my brother who is defending YOUR freedom is a murderer. This perspective is from the Assembly of God:


"War and Conscientious Objectors
This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the Assemblies of God have a position on war and conscientious objectors?
The Assemblies of God position on war and conscientious objectors states: "As a Movement we affirm our loyalty to the government of the United States in war or peace. We shall continue to insist, as we have historically, on the right of each member to choose for himself whether to declare his position as a combatant [one who willingly serves in positions of violence], a noncombatant [one who serves only in nonviolent ways], or a conscientious objector [one who refuses to participate in any form of military service because of personal convictions regarding war]." (Article XXII of the Bylaws)

The implications of the above statement are clear. The Assemblies of God is committed to a position of loyalty to the government. Second, that loyalty is not imperiled by the presence of war. And third, all members are encouraged to exercise their personal convictions in how they will respond during times of war whether combatant, noncombatant, or as a conscientious objector.

What are the biblical principles which support this position? 1) The Scriptures call for civic loyalty: "Everyone must submit himself to governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established" (Romans 13:1). 2) On occasion, those authorities must bear arms: "He does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (Romans 13:4). 3) The Scriptures call for the employment of personal conscience in all matters. "Each of us will give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12).

In light of this, how are we to understand the sixth commandment: "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13)? The Hebrew word used here (raisach) in the ancient manuscripts is descriptive of an act of willful and personal vengeance. While the outcome may be similar to the killings of war, the motive and driving force are quite different. The language of Exodus 20:13 does not suggest that we are to disallow participation in war, even if that participation involves killing. The preservation of peace and tranquillity sometimes makes this response imperative.

The Assemblies of God as a Movement deplores war. Therefore we are committed to its avoidance as much as accountability, sensibility, and responsibility allow. This will be the necessary posture, until the Prince of Peace–Jesus Christ—establishes His reign over a world that is now characterized by violence, wickedness, and war.


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The above statement is based upon our common understanding of scriptural teaching. The official delineation of this position is found in the General Council Bylaws, Article XXII.

All Scripture quotations are from the New International Version (NIV) unless otherwise specified."



Link: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/contempissues_11_war.cfm


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 15:45Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

The idea that troops are winning my "freedom" is an absolute farce!

ONLY JESUS IS ABLE TO GIVE FREEDOM!

One would say that American freedom isn't freedom at all....but a different kind of bondage. Sin abounds in the states.

I am absolutely sure that there are people in China (under communism) that are more free in Christ than I am (in supposed freedom).

Beyond this freedoms are becomming a thing of the past. Try street preaching sometime. Clock how fast the police come and try to tell you you have to stop. Usually somewhere in the ballpark of 5 minutes to an hour.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate this country and its laws. But the thought of people killing so I can have 1st ammendment rights appeals little to me. I say take my rights and if that changes me then I wasn't free in the first place.


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Neil Long

 2006/8/18 15:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I knew when I wrote that scripture, everyone would get all excited. It says what it says.

If someone was attacking my family, what would I do?

Well why does he say resist an evil person? Turn the other cheek?

It seems we want to explain away, whatever does not justify our actions.

Pray for our enemies.
Bless those that persecute you.

Why did he tell Peter to put the sword away? Those that live by the sword, die by the sword.

These are not my words.

Why did Jesus say these things?

Murray



You are exactly right. This is not a political issue, this is not Republican vs. Democrat, or whatever. This is the Word of God. There is no such thing as a just war on secular terms. The only just war is the war against the flesh and the devil. And we don't harm the Devil by waging war against nations that have a devilish leader while killing thousands of innocent civilians, we help him. (i.e., 2003 Iraq War).

Many will quote the OT Scripture to justify their just war stance or whatever. The problem is, Israel was a nation that was being lead by God, this is a nation that is not being lead by God. Nor are there any nations that are. We must put things into context. America has the right to go to war with a nation on a justified term with U.N. backing. This is the law of the land, but we must not participate in it or show our approval for it. For it (should) go against our conscience. While we should respect laws, we do not respect laws that go against obeying Him.

Acts 5:29, Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

This means when something conflicts with what God's authority deems correct (i.e., via spreading the Gospel for His glory, or not worshiping idols) we must obey God. Even if it means being jailed. It ALL must be done with the Spirit's guidance, of course.

One of the reasons killing innocent civillians, even evil dictators, is bad, is because we sorta intervene in their lives and shorten their death. We almost "intervene" and thus they lose the chance they may have had in the future to come to God through Jesus and glory that would've gone to God is now spilled over, albeit, by our own carnal lusts. This is the dilemma I see. You may say, well, they should've come to God before! Think of before you were saved. We must live in peace and harmony with all people, enemies and friends. This is the Way of Jesus.

Jordan

 2006/8/18 15:55
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

I will be sure to pass this info to my brother.


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/8/18 16:00Profile





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