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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Apart from prayer, repentance, and good deeds, modern Judaism also teaches that personal suffering may pay for sin. Even death is sufficient suffering to obtain atonement. The dying person is encouraged to proclaim, “May my death be an atonement for all my sins.”



Thanks for sharing this Roniya. It is almost ironic that some of the first 'terrorists' were Jewish Zealots of the 1st and 2nd century.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/18 11:59Profile









 Re: question about Jewish beliefsph

philologos said:

Quote:
chrssss, was the 'Korban' of your quote referring to the daily morning and evening sacrifice of the lamb? If it was, Korban, would be a proper description. But if, in Judaism, they refer to the Sin Offering or Trespass Offering, I believe this would be a mistake to designate them 'Korban' as they were obligatory rather that 'gift'. I find it instructive that the word 'Korban' is not used in the description of Yom Kippur - The Day of Atonement.

I too would like to understand how an orthodox Jew thinks his sins are remitted.

On the AD70. I read a poignant history of the Rebellion recently which observed that on July 17th AD 70, in the desperate famine and disease ridden remnants who took final refuge on the temple mount, no lamb was found for the morning burnt offering (Korban) and the Old Covenant was visibily (as well as spiritually) over....

Ron, this seems to shed enough detail on the sacrifice of Christ, to clarify to my understanding, the point you were making (I believe) about Abel's offering. It was an 'approach' offering. Have I got that right?

Does this mean also, despite 'Korban' not being mentioned in connection with Yom Kippur in Judaism, that Jesus was both, in that His death corresponded with the evening sacrifice as well as our Passover?

 2006/8/19 8:27
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Does this mean also, despite 'Korban' not being mentioned in connection with Yom Kippur in Judaism, that Jesus was both, in that His death corresponded with the evening sacrifice as well as our Passover?


Yes, I believe so. As regards the OT. I don't think there were any 'sin offerings' before Sinai, although I know many will disagree with me.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/8/19 17:27Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: signs of the times(then)

Hi everyone.

Quote:
On the AD70. I read a poignant history of the Rebellion recently which observed that on July 17th AD 70, in the desperate famine and disease ridden remnants who took final refuge on the temple mount, no lamb was found for the morning burnt offering (Korban) and the Old Covenant was visibily (as well as spiritually) over.



I have read in different places of some peculiar events associated with the sacrifices and the Temple that are supposed to have occurred within the 40 years leading up to the destruction of the Temple. These events are also supposedly mentioned in Jewish writtings, the Talmuds, though I have not seen any mention of them in the writtings of Josephus.

Does anyone else know anything about this?

For instance, Josephus mentions the following 'sign' during that period:

'Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."' -Wars Book 6 Chapter 5 par 3.

But these others involve a certain 'lottery of the goats' supposed to have came up black consistently for 40 years and then another ritual performed on the Day of Atonement involving a thread that had similar consistent results(turning a certain color).

I find this particular topic fascinating concerning all the things which are said to have occurred, especialy leading up to the destruction of the Temple. For instance in the same chapter, Josephus records that

"...there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year."

"...on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour."

"At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple."

"Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night."

I find this next one really fascinating

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared....[b]before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities[/b]."

He also mentions a certan man

'who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!"'

Putting all these together it is fascinating to think of what sort of time this was in history!

Any thoughts?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/8/19 21:44Profile





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