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MSeaman
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Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 question about Jewish beliefs

I know that there are some people who are Jewish on this forum and I have a question.

Please forgive my ignorance, but if there is no temple, do the modern religious Jewish people still do the animal sacrifices? if not, how do they atone for sin? Perhaps, I have missed something in my reading of the old testament.

Thank you in advance.


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Melissa

 2006/8/17 16:54Profile
BradW
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Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re: question about Jewish beliefs

Good question, M.

I'm interested to see the replies. There was a thread a while back that mentioned something of Israel having salvation and being God's people. I'm pretty sure the Bible says that if you don't have the Son, you don't have the Father. Are they still considered the people of God even though they don't have the Father?


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Brad Wright

 2006/8/17 17:00Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: question about Jewish beliefs

Hello Melissa...

In Judaism, the sacrifice is known as the [i]Korban[/i] (or "קרבן"). This more or less translates acronymically to "[i]Come near (or Draw Near) to God[/i]." After the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus, the practice of Korbanot ceased (for the most part).

Traditional Judaism teaches that the "Messiah" is coming, and he will most likely reinstate the levitical practice of Korban. Most rabbinical Jews believe that when the Christ comes, a 3rd Temple will be rebuilt. This will begin what is known referred to as the "messianic era." During this time, all of the practices of the Torah will be practiced. There is debate about which sort of sacrifices would take place. While most believe that both grain and animal offerings will continue, there is a minority that believe that animal sacrifices will cease. There is actually some debate about the purpose of the korbat in the first place.

Of course, as believers in Jesus, we know that Jesus Christ was the true Messiah -- the ultimate sacrifice. Both the "Messiah" waited for by most Jews and the "Mahdi" that Muslims are waiting for sound a lot like the Biblical description of the antichrist. Personally, I feel that the antichrist will fulfill the conditions for the Jewish "Messiah" and the Islamic "Mahdi."

Anyway, you may want to perform a simple Google search. You can type in the search words "judaism" and "sacrifice." For further study, you can type in words like "Messiah," "Mahdi" (or "Mehdi"), and "sacrifice." Your local Barnes and Noble almost certainly has a section on Judaism next to their section on Christianity. Regardless, this is definitely an interesting topic of discussion!

:-)


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Christopher

 2006/8/17 22:32Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

chrisssssss'

Quote:
In Judaism, the sacrifice is known as the Korban (or "קרבן"). This more or less translates acronymically to "Come near (or Draw Near) to God." After the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus, the practice of Korbanot ceased (for the most part).

I am interested to hear the replies to this too.

The word 'korban' is the word often used for "offering" in the KJV eg“Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.”
(Lev 1:2 KJVS)

“Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man of you offereth an oblation unto Jehovah, ye shall offer your oblation of the cattle, even of the herd and of the flock.”
(Lev 1:2 ASV) The ASV is making the point that this is an 'oblation' or a 'gift'. The word is used by Jesus “But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.”
(Mark 7:11 KJVS) As chrsssss says it has the sense of 'an approach offering' by which a suppliant might draw near to a monarch. It was a 'gift' to God, as the words of Jesus make clear. In the letter to the Hebrews there is a distinction made between 'offerings' and 'sacrifices for sin'. Heb. 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb. 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
chrssss, was the 'Korban' of your quote referring to the daily morning and evening sacrifice of the lamb? If it was, Korban, would be a proper description. But if, in Judaism, they refer to the Sin Offering or Trespass Offering, I believe this would be a mistake to designate them 'Korban' as they were obligatory rather that 'gift'. I find it instructive that the word 'Korban' is not used in the description of Yom Kippur - The Day of Atonement.

I too would like to understand how an orthodox Jew thinks his sins are remitted.

On the AD70. I read a poignant history of the Rebellion recently which observed that on July 17th AD 70, in the desperate famine and disease ridden remnants who took final refuge on the temple mount, no lamb was found for the morning burnt offering (Korban) and the Old Covenant was visibily (as well as spiritually) over. There were some attempts to reinstitute the ritual during the Bar Kochba revolt of AD 130 but that was just the 'last flush of a mortal illness'; it was over.

So, back to the question, how does an orthodox Jew understand the bloodless Judaism of today?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/18 5:15Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi All,

There are three main things that Rabinnic Jews view as taking the place of Temple Sacrifice.

Tzedakah or Tzedekiah (acts of righteousness)
Teshuvah (repentance)
Tefilia (prayer)

A good introduction into this can be found [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzedakah]here.[/url] This is one of the reasons why Rabbinic Judaism is so difficult to penetrate. The issue is [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1958]AUTHORITY. [/url] They have already a system in place that gives the Rabbi's authority over God Himself. That may seem blasphemous to us, but it is a sobering reality in Judaism. As far as it goes, [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1959]IT IS NOT IN HEAVEN. (Bath Kol)[/url]

It would take a significant amount of time just to list the issues involved. But the thing to remember is that the Pharisees fled to Jamnia (Yavneh) at the destruction of the Temple to continue their religion apart from the Sadducees. They were never that friendly with them to begin with and differed widly in areas of doctrine, especially on the resurrection and existence of angels. The Sadducees appear in many cases to not even believe the scriptures (just my opinion). They were the priesthood of the second temple period. You will recall that there had been 400 years of silence that gave way to the whole of Judaism "doing what was right in their own eyes." Soon the traditions of men became the doctrines of men; and then the doctrines of men became the [i]commandments[/i] of men. This progression still exists today in Christianity in some cases.

The proliferation of synagogues (bet knesset 'the house' ) made this all possible as the Jews began to identify themselves more with Synagogue than with the 'Temple'. Each synagogue is said to have had a Menorah burning as did the Temple. The father's of homes then began to view themselves more as the 'priest of the home'. Numbers in synagogues are determined by families and not individuals. So you see the pattern I'm referring to; Temple/Synagogue/Home.

It may be useful to note that many believe also that Torah (bible) study is the highest form of worship. The study of the Talmud is considered the highest honor in Judaism and its scholars are viewed as heroes of the Jewish World.

Just a few issues to get you started. Ritual Immersion is also a topic to address. The bottom line is that many believe that the object is to do what you are able to do. I would call it 'substituting the commandments'. When you have no means to fulfill a commandment (i.e. the Temple is gone), then just substitute some other thing that 'can' be fulfilled. You may ask, "By what authority do they do this"? I refer you back to the original couple articles on It is not in Heaven and Authority. If you wish to browse through that folder there are other articles that deal with the topic also. I suggest the book, "Rabbi Akiba's Messiah" by Daniel Gruber. I just ask that you prayerfully consider the issues involved as you minister to and write about the Jews. They are steeped in deception and believe we are the ones deceived. The tendency would be to use the info as a weapon, which it is. But it is no different than ministering to a JW .

God Bless,

-Robert



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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/18 8:25Profile









 Re: question about Jewish beliefs


Melissa and all, this is most helpful. Thanks.

One comment from a Christian perspective:

Quote:
Of course, as believers in Jesus, we know that Jesus Christ was the true Messiah -- the ultimate sacrifice.

I would say also, Christ is the third temple - the one made without hands - built of living stones.

 2006/8/18 8:44
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There are three main things that Rabinnic Jews view as taking the place of Temple Sacrifice.


Thanks Robert, I was hoping you would pick up on this.

Quote:
Tzedakah or Tzedekiah (acts of righteousness)
Teshuvah (repentance)
Tefilia (prayer)

“And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.”
(Lev 22:21 KJVS) Even to be accepted as 'offerings' these would have to be 'perfect'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/18 11:23Profile









 Re:

Here is some information that might be helpful in addition to all the other good info that has already been given. A study of Yom Kippur would probably give some light to the issue. Yom Kippur (September/October) is the day of the year for the Jewish people to repent for all of the sins they have committed over the past year. Over in Israel everything stops on Yom Kippur and the synagogues are full.

“Yom Kippur is a solemn fast day. For twenty-four awesome hours from sundown to sundown, Jews the world over—young and old, male and female—assemble in synagogues and places of prayer, to seek atonement with God and forgiveness for all their sins. It is “The Day” of judgment and reckoning.” [i]The Gospel in the Feasts of Israel[/i] by Victor Buksbazen, pp. 45.
“In between Rosh Hashana (New Year’s Day) and Yom Kippur is a ten day period during which every Jew searches his heart and seeks to be reconciled with God and his neighbor.” The Gospel in the Feasts of Israel by Victor Buksbazen, pp. 45.

“Today much has changed. Atonement on Yom Kippur is no longer viewed in terms of national cleansing, as spelled out in Scripture. Rather, Yom Kippur now focuses more on the individual, personal atonement. The shift in perspective came with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. With no Temple, no priesthood, no sacrifices, and the worldwide dispersion of the Jews, finding a way to be cleansed from sins was a problem.

Some Orthodox groups employ a ninth-century ritual called Kapparot (Expiations). On the day preceding Yom Kippur, a chicken is swung three times over the head of a penitent sinner as a prayer is recited: “This is my substitute, my vicarious offering, my atonement; this cock [for males, a hen for females] shall meet death, but I shall find a long and pleasant life of peace.”

The predominant view in modern rabbinical Judaism is that sin is now atoned for by means of prayer, repentance, and good deeds. There is no need for a vicarious, substitutionary atonement because people are not viewed as suffering from original sin. Rather, people start life with a pure soul (as stated each day in the morning prayer: “O my God, the soul which Thou gavest me is pure”), and they must struggle all their lives to keep it pure. Therefore, as one Jewish leader declared, “Judaism does not throw the burden of its sins on other shoulders, and it does not let the innocent expiate the actions of the guilty. In Judaism, there is no vicarious atonement. One’s own guilt—one’s own punishment; no pardon without true repentance.” Apart from prayer, repentance, and good deeds, modern Judaism also teaches that personal suffering may pay for sin. Even death is sufficient suffering to obtain atonement. The dying person is encouraged to proclaim, “May my death be an atonement for all my sins.”

Without the Temple, priesthood, or sacrifices, punishment for sin can be avoided and atonement procured within modern Judaism in the following manner:

1. Repentance atones.
2. If there is a more serious sin, repentance postpones the punishment and the Day of Atonement atones.
3. If there is an even more serious sin, repentance and the Day of Atonement postpone, and suffering atones.
4. If there is a grave sin, such as profaning God’s name, repentance, the Day of Atonement, and suffering all postpone the punishment, while death provides the atonement.”

[i]The Feasts of Israe[/i]l by Bruce Scott, pp 97, 98, chapter on Yom Kippur.


I know some of this information is repeated by the others here on the forum. But I left it in to maintain the continuity of what was being said here.


 2006/8/18 11:26
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Thanks Roniya
very helpful info.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/18 11:44Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Even to be accepted as 'offerings' these would have to be 'perfect'.



Yes. I recall my Instructor at the Institute saying that it was the presence of God that he recognized in a full Gospel church service that opened his eyes to the truth (my paraphrase). He did not understand what was going on, but he knew it was God. I have held closely to this saying because I think it a difficult thing to merely win a person over who is entrenched in such deep seated teachings. Like Saul on the Damascus road, there has to be a time when the Lord reveals Himself. Just some added thoughts.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/18 11:56Profile





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