Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Christian History|
The Preterist says 'it was then and is over'. The Futurist says 'it is on its way'. My perspective is that it is all 'in process' and has been since the era began. This is only a couple of days from one of God's perspectives. Will there be future destructions in store for Jerusalem? I don't know. It is not necessary to my understanding of the last days for there to be a further judgment. I don't say it won't, just that I don't know and all the protestations of the Futurists leave me unconvinced.
How to happy to hear all the "I don't know's" ... Especially from a pastor of over 40 years experienece.
[i]He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.
... feels the truth of it in their heart and replies
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.[/i]
(Rev 22:20 KJVS)
Beautiful... Thanks Ron.
Great opportunity to once again recommend towards this great matter.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2411&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History - 10 Sessions[/url]
And just to pull one out of the archives, ... It was refreshing to read Aaron's 'testimony' of sorts once again.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5497&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Future History of the Church[/url]
| 2006/8/18 16:03||Profile|
Quote: I gave that link only for a good biblical view on Generations, but do not believe that AD 70 fullfilled anythink but only in part.
I breifly read through that article and, while somewhat helpful, I don't understand a few things. For example, the author states:
"Some believe that the generation Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse was the generation that passed away in 70 A.D. But that does not fit within the context of a literal return of Christ back to earth, as described in the Scriptures preceding and following the parable of the fig tree."
I think that the Generation in Matthew 24:23 is the one when Israel became a Nation again in May 14th ending, in 1948.
| 2006/8/19 13:31||Profile|
Quote:My own position is pretty solidly Preterist..up to verse 22. From there onwards I am more Futurist, but as regards Revelation I am mostly Idealist.
I gave that link only for a good biblical view on Generations, but do not believe that AD 70 fullfilled anythink but only in part.
See? I have it all sorted! :-?
| 2006/8/22 6:14||Profile|
| Re:the substance and the symbol|
Todd, when I was first converted I used to wonder about those refrences to generation also. It all seemed to be pointing to something in that day. I think one of the difficulties I had was captured in this question you asked
But who knows if the parable of the fig tree is describing a literal return?
I sure thought it was and was pretty much certain that the [b]entire[/b] olivet discourse would have to be fulfilled in quite a literal, or should I say, physical, material, visible, way. In other words I had not left any room for [b]both[/b] substance [b]and[/b] symbol in my expectations for fulfillment of these words. And so for instance, I never stopped to think of what it would mean for the stars of heaven to literally fall.
Along the way I was exposed to the partial-preterist view of Eschatology and it really shook up the way I understood these things. I mean really shook it up. I believe though that it has been for the better.
I've found some things along the way that I think are real treasures. For instance I was amazed to learn of some of the events that are said to have taken place during that generation leading up to that final seige and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD(some of which are written in the book of Acts). What an amazing time this must have been!
Taking them together I wonder if there is not an amazing confluence of events all flowing into fulfillment of our Lord's words here where He said
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Elsewhere He warned them that
...upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth...
...all these things shall come upon this generation.
I wouldn't mind opening up these and other verses and looking at how we can understand them or how we may have misunderstood them before. There is so much here to learn about.
I wish you all the best in your search for understanding of these things and I pray that God would keep and protect you along the way.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2006/8/23 8:59||Profile|
I recently read a secular historians record of the AD 70 events and it was very instructive. The book is called [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0752425730/026-2557786-3571609?v=glance&n=266239&v=glance]Apocalypse[/url] and was written by Neil Faulkner. Faulkner is totally secular. He does not believe in the inspiration of the Bible but uses aspects from the gospels to add to his store of information. His main sources are the writings of the Essenes and Josephus but he has an amazing grasp of Middle Eastern Roman History and the slide into the AD70 'apocalypse' is terrifyingly told.
This is NOT a book to recommend to the faint hearted nor to young Christians who might be troubled by his attitude to the scriptures. (He believes that Jesus was just another failed Messiah) but as raw information for any who are interesting in the history of the events and for creating the atmosphere of the final days it is an excellent read.
Any partial preterist sympathies you have may well be encouraged by the book.
again... NOT RECOMMENDED for tender souls.
| 2006/8/25 6:29||Profile|
| Re: a day = a thousand years - God's math|
I wish to highlight this:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:(Acts 2:17 KJVS)
We are still on the 'same page', still on the same 'day'. We have been in the era of the last days since John declared "repent for the kingdom of heaven has arrived".
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
(Psa 90:4 KJVS)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2Pet 3:8 KJVS)
Suppose we had two maps, one to a scale of a thousand miles to the inch and another to a scale of half a mile to the inch. In our finite capacity we could work at one scale or the other. We would use the larger scale for a panoramic view and the smaller scale to trace a narrow footpath. Human beings are wonderful but we are very much either/or creatures. (Hence the conversations we have on these forums. ) But God is able to think and work to both scales at the same time. To Him a thousand years are as a day and a day as a thousand years AT THE SAME TIME.
I have always loved and envied the way in which artists (painters, scuptors, writers) are able to freeze a moment in time to give us chance to examine it. There is a thousand years in one day we just don't aren't able to slow the tape down... or to speed it up to see the passage of a thousand years in a single day.
I like to think of the scriptures in this way too. We have macro revelation
This is a good word!
The amount of misconceptions we have accumulated regarding Gods kingdom - all because we fail to see time through Gods eyes - are of great concern. We humans seem so eager to fit God into our mental packages. That only tempts us to create and embrace false teachings especially regarding the prophetic. And in turn, we empower false prophets.
May God break down our obsession to fit God and his ways into our own finite minds no matter how painful that is. May he draw us to himself as our source of wisdom and understanding.
| 2006/8/25 7:34||Profile|
Thanks for your input everyone. That book seems cool Ron. I just put it on my amazon wishlist.
Just now while reading Diane's post, and rereading about the "last days" and how a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, I realized something I hadn't thought of until now.
In a week there are 7 days, right? Creation had 7 days, and God rested on the seventh day. I've heard that 7 speaks of completion and perfection.
I'm not studied on this at all, but it seems many people believe that there were about 4000 years of human history from Adam to Jesus. So that's like 4 days.
If you think about a week, the "last days" of the week would be days 5-7, and 4 would be right in the middle.
So I find it interesting that if we are thinking in this way, Christ came at the end of the 4th day, His time on the earth marking the end of the 4th and beginning of the 5th, right? And the beginning of the 5th would be the beginning of the "last days" of this symbolic week. Now about 2000 years (2 days) have passed since Christ came. So that means we would now be approaching the beginning of the 7th day, the day of rest, completion, and perfection. The last day.
So if we think of the "last days" as days 5-7, then it would seem that we are not in the same "day" as the early church. They were in day 5, and we are currently at the end of day 6 and approaching the beginning of day 7.
I am cautious of taking this idea too far, but it's just a very interesting idea to me. At least the idea of the "last days" being like the last 3000 years (3 days) of human history, which we would be living in. Maybe that's the way things will pan out. We'll find out for sure soon enough I guess.
| 2006/8/25 19:01||Profile|
In The first three days, that is day 7
Psalms 90:16-17 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.
In the seventh day, the third day after the Cross this should read. Let thy work appear unto thy Friends, and thy glory unto their son's. And let the beauty of the LORD our God be in us: and establish thou the work of our hands in us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou in Christ.
Also, Christ rose on the 3rd day.
In Christ: Phillip.
| 2006/8/25 19:53||Profile|
Aw, that's awesome! The third day thing! So the we can see the soon coming day as both the 3rd (resurrection) day [i]and[/i] the 7th (completion/perfection/rest) day! Thanks!
So I see the 3rd day thing, but I'm not quite clear on the verse you used. What's the connection?
| 2006/8/25 20:13||Profile|
Jhn 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Each of us that is the believers were crucified with Christ and we were resurrected with Him. From day three after the Cross until now all have been resurrected with Him in Spirit and Soul, we only have one more to go and that is the body, those in the grave that are in Christ and those that are left on the earth on that resurrection day for all that are in Christ. This is our 3rd thousand years, 3rd day resurrection. It is close and can occur at anytime.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/8/26 2:24||Profile|