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todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I don't really get the second part of the Barnes commentary, but I think the first part is interesting and helpful. He seems to take the position that I have been considering lately.

Ron,
I think I agree with you, at least to some degree. But I'm not totally sure. But I'm still wondering how this helps us with the question at hand. What's the connection/application?

Olan,
Thank you for clarifying. I didn't know those terms you mentioned such as "preterist." What does that word mean, anyway? I'm not sure I fit into those camps, but it's interesting to me that they exist. Are there any good books out there about them?

 2006/8/17 11:14Profile
OverSeer
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Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama

 Re: Preterist

Preter = a prefix meaning "beyond," "by," "past."

Preterit = a verb tense referring to a past, completed, action or state.

Therefore a preterist believes the tribulation along with the Lord's return has been historically fulfilled - that it is a past, completed, action or state.

Todd, I am not sure that I have read any books on preterism but I do know that I have read articles in various publications.

Grace and peace
Olan


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Olan Strickland

 2006/8/17 11:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

These [url=http://wiki.biblebase.com/index.php/The_Revelation]links to schools of eschatological schools of thought[/url] will give you an easy access to various ways of interpreting the doctrines of the second coming and later.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/17 11:45Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

todd's

Quote:
Ron,
I think I agree with you, at least to some degree. But I'm not totally sure. But I'm still wondering how this helps us with the question at hand. What's the connection/application?


There is a subtle variation in the record of Luke. “And when these things [u]begin to come to pass[/u], then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”
(Luke 21:28 KJVS) The period referred to in scripture as 'the last days' is an era rather than a calendar date. Christ's presentation to Israel through the ministry of John Baptist was its commencement. (which is why, I suspect, the replacement for Judas had to have been a witness to the era's commencement. (Acts 1:22)) Peter's explanation of the significance of the outpouring of the Spirit was that is was a sign of the 'last days'. “And it shall come to pass in [u]the last days[/u], saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”
(Acts 2:17 KJVS) We are still on the 'same page', still on the same 'day'. We have been in the era of the last days since John declared "repent for the kingdom of heaven has arrived".

The events that would overtake jerusalem in the lifetime of Christ's hearers were a certain sign that the ages were coming to their culmination. The revolution followed by civil war followed by the Roman's retribution which culminated in AD70 brought a physical end to the Old Covenant. (the spiritual end was Calvary) On July 17th AD 70 the desperate defenders of the Temple ran out of lambs for the morning sacrifice and the Old Covenant was over. The conditions described in Matthew, which I presume is pre-ad70, were hideously fulfilled in the disintegration of the nation, its culture and its priesthood in AD 70.

The Preterist says 'it was then and is over'. The Futurist says 'it is on its way'. My perspective is that it is all 'in process' and has been since the era began. This is only a couple of days from one of God's perspectives. Will there be future destructions in store for Jerusalem? I don't know. It is not necessary to my understanding of the last days for there to be a further judgment. I don't say it won't, just that I don't know and all the protestations of the Futurists leave me unconvinced.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/17 13:27Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks Olan.

Ron,
Wow, I have just stumbled upon a whole new realm of understanding with all of this. Thanks for that link. Very helpful. The Partial Preterist view seems the most intriguing to me at this point. And what if it's true? What a paradigm shift!

I was surprised by this quotation from that site you linked to:
"Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers."

And I've never even been exposed to this view in my 5 or so years of my Christian walk! Strange...

I am open to the idea of more of a "both and" possibility as opposed to a strict "either or" concerning the fulfillment of these things, as you seem to suggest. Like that there could be different "senses" in which these things are fulfilled.

Thanks again.

 2006/8/17 19:57Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I was just rereading the Partial Preterist section from that link you provided and found this quotation:

"Partial Preterism is generally considered to be an historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all items of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Still, Partial Preterism is not the majority view among American denominations founded after the 16th century and meets with significant vocal opposition, especially by those denominations which espouse Dispensationalism."

Isn't that fascinating? Wouldn't you think the early church fathers knew what they were talking about? I mean, they might not have got it all perfectly right. But I just can't believe I've never been told any of this before.

 2006/8/17 20:16Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Isn't that fascinating? Wouldn't you think the early church fathers knew what they were talking about? I mean, they might not have got it all perfectly right. But I just can't believe I've never been told any of this before.


The thing to remember is that those early church fathers (who certainly didn't get it all right!) would not have described themselves as Preterist. They would have looked upon their own day as being right on the heels of those AD 70 etc destructions and seem to have expected a soon return. Only history calls them Preterists.

This may be significant. Each generation seems to interpret the prophetic scriptures in the light of its own contemporary setting. Each generation reads the phrase “He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.... feels the truth of it in their heart and replies Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”
(Rev 22:20 KJVS)Oh and BTW, as with many wiki entries, the entry on Partial Preterism was probably written by a Partial Preterist! :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/18 5:24Profile
W_D_J_D
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Joined: 2006/1/13
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 Re:

Dual prophecy like Psalm 83 or Gog and Magog scriptures.

to simple?

 2006/8/18 6:43Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Matthew 24:34

Isa 53:8 .....and who shall declare his generation?......
Have you concidered this?
[url=http://www.raptureready.com/rap101.html].....and who shall declare his generation?..... Isaha 53:8[/url]
This is a good way to think about "His generation"

 2006/8/18 10:07Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks for the clarifying points Ron.

WDJD,
I'm not sure what you mean there. Maybe you could expand?

Logic,
I breifly read through that article and, while somewhat helpful, I don't understand a few things. For example, the author states:

"Some believe that the generation Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse was the generation that passed away in 70 A.D. But that does not fit within the context of a literal return of Christ back to earth, as described in the Scriptures preceding and following the parable of the fig tree."

But who knows if the parable of the fig tree is describing a [i]literal[/i] return? That doesn't seem clear at all to me. But I do find that part of the Matthew 24 very interesting because Jesus, talking to His disciples, tells them:

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when it's branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, [i]you[/i] know that summer is near; even so [i]you[/i] too, when [i]you[/i] see [i]all[/i] these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door."

I think a summery of Matthew 24 might be this: Jesus seems to be bascially saying, "Look guys. Here's all the signs (which you asked me about). When you see all this stuff taking place, you know it's about to happen, so be ready."

 2006/8/18 10:40Profile





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