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JoeA
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois

 Re:

Quote:
The Blessed Hope is that He WILL Come and we WILL see Him as He is and we WILL be like Him(Col. 3:4, Titus 2:12-14, II Thess. 1:4-10). The Blessed Hope is NOT in the timing of His coming. Also, the Blessed Hope is for ALL true believers in Christ, not just for a select group of believers.



Amen to that.

Quote:
The truth is that prior to the 1800's, the Church of Jesus Christ never taught a pre-trib gathering of the saints to heaven.



Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Quote:
What the early church as well as reformation church taught was that the TRUE Church would suffer under anti-christ until the coming of the Lord in Glory and judgment----then the saints of God would be rescued/delivered and the world judged.



"But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [b] God hath not appointed us to wrath[/b] but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:8, 9

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
[b]I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation[/b], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[b]Behold, I come quickly[/b], hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."Rev 3:10, 11


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Joe Auvil

 2006/8/19 13:01Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I know many use this verse to substantiate a pre-trib view, but the word "keep" means guard.
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.
So in essence, because they had held to and guarded the word, they themselves would be held and guarded.
There is an O.T. illustration of this
Exo 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Exo 9:2 For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
Exo 9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
Exo 9:4 And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
Exo 9:5 And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land.
Exo 9:6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and [b]all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one. [/b]
Exo 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.
Then again in Exodus
Exo 11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
Exo 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
Exo 11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
Exo 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
GOD can keep HIS people through HIS judgement, just as Noah was not delivered out of the flood, but through it.
As for the other verse, it says we are not "appointed to wrath, but unto salvation". Yet if we follow the pre-trib teaching on the matter of tribulation saints who go through wrath, were they appointed to wrath? Are we better than they even though the Scriptures declare that GOD is no respecter of persons? Or could this simply mean that we're not appointed to wrath as in GOD is not willing that any should perish ?
Questions to ponder.......


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patrick heaviside

 2006/8/19 13:42Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Hi Joe,

What do you make of Ephraem's section 10:

"Section X
And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever. "

Quote:
God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:8, 9



Absolutely, but that applies to ALL Christians, not just Christians before a time of tribulation. It is Jesus Christ Himself who spares all from His Wrath who in the past, present, AND future, abide in Him (Jn. 3:36). Also to note, when God's wrath or judgments fall on the wicked, it does not mean we have to disappear for the wrath/judgments not to hurt us. The Israelites in Egypt are a perfect example of Him "keeping"(guarding from loss or injury) His children through HIS wrath.

Jesus spoke of this same "keeping from" while still being upon the earth--Jn. 17:15, regarding the Father protecting His disciples from the enemy.


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Cindy

 2006/8/19 14:56Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
it says we are not "appointed to wrath, but unto salvation". Yet if we follow the pre-trib teaching on the matter of tribulation saints who go through wrath, were they appointed to wrath? Are we better than they even though the Scriptures declare that GOD is no respecter of persons? Or could this simply mean that we're not appointed to wrath as in GOD is not willing that any should perish ?



Yes, I too have pondered these questions and the answers, I believe biblical, led me to change my stance. Jesus speaks these things: "All the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jn. 37......and----"those whom the Father gave me, I will in no wise lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day ".......Jn. 6:39.... and---- "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn. 6:44

Who is the "all"?


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Cindy

 2006/8/19 15:04Profile
OverSeer
Member



Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama

 Re: Pre-Trib Rapture

Quote:
God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:8, 9



This is indeed, I believe, the crux of the matter. How one views "wrath" will determine his or her eschatology. If one sees the entire tribulation as the wrath of God then he or she will be pre-trib. If one sees the last half of the tribulation as the wrath of God then he or she will be mid-trib. If one sees the end of the tribulation as the wrath of God then he or she will be post-trib. If one sees the Day of the Lord (which takes place when the Lord cuts the great tribulation short) as the wrath of God then he or she will be "pre-wrath."

If the entire tribulation is the wrath of God then the pre-trib camp is right. If the last half of the tribulation is the wrath of God then the mid-trib camp is right. If the end of the tribulation is the wrath of God then the post-trib camp is right. And if the Day of the Lord (which takes place when the Lord cuts the great tribulation short) is the wrath of God then the pre-wrath camp is right.

All are right about one thing - The King is coming! Make that two things - And we have been and will be saved from the wrath of God through the King! (Romans 5:9)

Grace and peace
Olan


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Olan Strickland

 2006/8/19 15:38Profile
lovejt
Member



Joined: 2005/11/5
Posts: 121


 Re:

I liked how you summarized that Olan.
I haven't studied this in a long time but
i have been 'post-trib/pre-wrath'. Like
ya'll have said, its definately something not
to argue and cause division. There are probably 'pre-trib' people on this board that are more righteous then me. That would be more important. Actually, i don't
mind to be wrong on this if you know what i mean :)....My take was that the GT is actually 'Satan's wrath' for 3 1/2 years, then the Day of the Lord is God's wrath. Hence, post-trib/pre-wrath. Resurrection at the last trump (7th trump), after the last trump ends the Wrath begins with the bowls. (Rev 16)


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james

 2006/8/22 22:00Profile
OverSeer
Member



Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama

 Re: The Pre-Trib Rapture

Understanding that each view point of the timing of the rapture allows for the removal of the church before "God's wrath" is essential to fellowship because each "camp" is saying the same thing - "the church will not endure the wrath of God but will be saved from it." So the necessary component of a discussion of the timing of the rapture (not talking about its day or hour) is a scriptural definition of and between the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. This calls for proper exegesis - rightly dividing the Word of truth.

We then can enter into Christian dialogue and search the scriptures to see if these things are so - being open to correction and to affirmation where the Word of the Lord gives either.

For example:

Quote:
The Great Tribulation is expressly called the day of God's wrath. Today the Lord is withholding His anger; He is seated upon a throne of grace, but the day approaches when He will take the seat of judgment. Then "the day of his wrath" will be upon all the world (Ps. 110:5; Isa. 13:6-13; Rev. 6:16-17).

In this quote the writer stated that the Great Tribulation is expressly called the day of God's wrath. But nowhere in Scripture is the Great Tribulation ever called the Day of God's wrath. This is a form of eisegesis (reading into the Scriptures) and not exegesis (rightly dividing the Word of truth). The scriptures sited to confirm the proof of interpretation actually deny that interpretation.

Psalm 110:5 - "The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the
[i]day of His wrath[/i]. That in no wise declares that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God - it only establishes the truth that there is coming a "day of His wrath."

Isaiah 13:6-13 - This text not only does not prove that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God but actually proves that it is not. The day of the Lord (which is the day of God's wrath) both in the Old Testament and the New Testament is always preceded by cosmic disturbances. Isaiah 6:10-11 - "For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; the sun will be dark when it rises and the moon will not shed its light. [i]Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud and abase the haughtiness of the ruthless[/i]." This isn't the beginning of the tribulation or the great tribulation - this is the beginning of the day of the Lord (God's wrath) and it doesn't happen until the Great Tribulation is cut short (See Matthew 24:22-31)

Revelation 6:16-17 - speaks of the wrath of the Lamb (ie, the wrath of God) and if you back up and begin with verse 12 and following, the same signs (sun, moon, and stars) precede the wrath of the Lamb.

If anything the Bible teaches that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God. Revelation 12:12 - "...Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, [i]having great wrath[/i], knowing that he has only a short time."

According to Christ Himself, the Day of the Lord (God's wrath) wouldn't begin until He cut the Great Tribulation short - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days..." (Matthew 24:29). By the way, the rapture is seen in verse 31!

If anyone would like, maybe we can take a look at various view points one by one and hold them up to the light of Scripture and see whether they stand or fall.

Grace and peace
Olan


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Olan Strickland

 2006/8/23 10:28Profile
Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 220
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re:

Just read and write between the lines. Get the Word to say what you want it too. Tragic.

"O"


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Lahry Sibley

 2006/8/23 18:10Profile





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