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OverSeer
Member



Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama

 Re: Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Dear brothers and sisters:

To me the timing of the rapture is not a matter of "fellowship." But I also know that for some it is. I must state that I at one time did believe the timing of the rapture was pre-trib. But I also must now say that I am neither pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. I am pre-wrath. I was taught pre-trib but my mind was changed by the Word of God, especially through Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2. In a pre-wrath viewpoint the "knowing the day or the hour" is still impossible. I believe that the Bible makes a distinction between the tribulation (including the great tribulation) and the Day of the Lord. I believe that the Bible teaches that the tribulation and great tribulation are the wrath of the devil (see Revelation 12:12) and that the Day of the Lord (which in the Bible is always preceded by cosmic disturbances) is the wrath of God (see Revelation 6:12-17).
http://www.devcobaptist.org/clientimages/31831/prophecyofthekingsgloriousreturn-1.wma

Grace and peace
Olan


_________________
Olan Strickland

 2006/8/17 16:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
To me the timing of the rapture is not a matter of "fellowship."



Agreed... I will not break fellowship with anyone over end time doctrine.

Krispy

 2006/8/17 16:20
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
What did Jesus mean when He said "I come quickly", and "No man knows the day or the hour", and "Watch, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come", and that He's coming as a "thief in the night".



Brother, these verses came to my mind:

[b]4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/b]
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 2006/8/17 21:35Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Why do people insist on 7 year trib?

Rev 12:9-14:
Verse 9--Satan cast out of heaven
Verse 11--trib
Verse 12--why trib? satan coming with great wrath knows he doesn't have much time. This is the verse that explains trib is the wrath of satan!
Verse 14--how much time? time (1yr) and times (2yrs) and half a time (0.5 years)--3.5 years total.

Rev 13:4-9:
verse 5: how long? 42 months. How many years is that? 3.5 years. Who? The beast speaking of the anti-christ.
verse 7: what's he going to do? make war with the saints (church) and overcome them.


Daniel 7:21-27:
Verse 21: Anti-Christ will war w/ saints (church) until…
Verse 22: Jesus comes and saints (church) possess kingdom
Verse 25: Anti-Christ shall be a royal pain for time (1yr) times (2yr) and dividing of time (0.5years)—3.5 years. Afterwhich…
Verse 27: His dominion will be taken away and kingdom given to saints (church)

Daniel 12:1-9:
Verse 1: Time of trouble = great tribulation
Verse 2-3: Rapture
Verse 6: How long will all this take?
Verse 7: time, times, half time (3.5 years)

Other scriptures deal with 70th week or 70th seven. Which is a week of years or 7 years. In the middle of that week the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice in the temple, which event Jesus said would start the great trib.


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/8/18 15:02Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Other scriptures deal with 70th week or 70th seven. Which is a week of years or 7 years. In the middle of that week the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice in the temple, which event Jesus said would start the great trib.



Maybe you could look into the opinions of men like Wesley, Spurgeon, Henry, Barnes. These all say that the 70th week of Daniel 9 was completed.
How you ask?
Start with the date of the decree to rebuild 457 B.C. now we have 49 years or 7 weeks which brings us to 408 B.C. now there are 434 years or 62 weeks which brings us to 26 A.D.
What happened then? Jesus came, and John cried out "Behold the lamb of GOD which taketh away the sin of the world" and Jesus was anointed/baptized which fulfills "the anointing of the most Holy"
So we are left with 7 years or one week. Some would say that a twothousand year leap of faith has come, yet there is nothing in Scripture to support that. So we look at events from 26 A.D.
So 31/2 years after the anointing Messiah was "cut off". Therefore we have one period of 3 1/2 years left. Now we must remember that this prophecy was to Daniel's people who were Jews, so Jesus confirmed "the Covenant" as it says in the King James and put an end to sacrifice etc. because there remanis no more sacrifice for sin, and HE did away with the sacrificial sysytem by HIS perfect sacrfice. The last part is the period where the Gospel was given to the Jews in Jerusalem and culminates in the rejection of Messiah and stoning of Stephen in Acts 7.
Let's discuss :-)


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2006/8/18 15:24Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

roaringlion, never heard those idears before. Intersting thoughts. I'll have to consider.

No doubt Jesus' sinless sacrifice took care of the need for sacrificial systems. His perfect sacrifice finished it all.

However, is Daniel 9:26-27 talking about Jesus or the antichrist taking away the sacrifice? I would say antichrist:

1. Jesus preached Abomination of desolation as future...no doubt this was before His sacrifice. This is more for preterist viewpoint.

2. See Daniel 11:31 for crystal clarity on who commits abominatio of desolation and also Mt 24:15 and 2 Thess. 2:4. These just have not happened.


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/8/18 15:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Ah yes the "abomination". But did that not take place in 70 A.D. when Titus and crew destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple?
It seems that the Daniel 9 passage that many use to support a 7 year tribulation is very obscure, and much has to be inserted to make it work. Granted we should not use prophecy as a basis for dividing as some have done.
Just some thoughts. May I suggest a wonderful site you could poke around with, it has been a blessing to me and the brother who does it is very patient in answering questions as well.
[url=http://www.revelation-illustrated.com/]Revelation Illustrated[/url]
Blessings to you


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patrick heaviside

 2006/8/18 16:02Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Your making me dizzy...first no preterism now preterism.

Well if you take Titus as antichrist then yes. But I don't see Jesus anywhere. If you see Him I'd sure like to worship before Him. Thing is Preterism is a catholic doctrine that was invented by Jesuits to give them an out....too many people where leaving Catholicism (and rightfully so) because Rome is the city of seven hills...or mystery babylon. Commonly was taught that pope was antichrist...which isn't true. But droves of people left...so what does a system do to retain control of it's subjects. Create something new to fill the gap..like caulk.


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/8/18 16:06Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Trust me, I'm not a praetorist. I despise the idea of it as it was inspired by the army of the R.C. Church. I would say if I had to define this view, which is not new, it is Historicist.
I don't lay claim to being absolute on this, it just seems to make more sense than a two thousand year stoppage of the prophecy clock inserted by man. If there was gap, would not our GOD who makes things very clear have told us?


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patrick heaviside

 2006/8/18 16:18Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
One thing that amazes me is the hostility toward pre-tribbers from post-tribbers.



Hey Krispy,

Your statement made me chuckle. You know very well that the same can be said from the other side. Remember the rapture site we both were members of? ;-) I must say that there was MUCH hostility against my post trib views there (even though they had a special thread just for differing viewpoints). Many pre-tribbers were pleasant to discuss differences with, however, there are some who were quite nasty and venomous in their responses. I think that is a reflection more of what is lacking in their walk than it is a reflection of who's right/who's wrong doctrinally.

I remember many times being told that I was a device of the devil for taking away people's "Blessed Hope". You have to understand that for those of us who used to believe pre-trib and now see post-trib----this IS a doctrine we see that can be very troublesome/dangerous in the "church".....not because it can divide, but because it is seen by many of us as a doctrine which falsely gives a hope of rescue---a hope that God does not give to those who follow Him.

The Blessed Hope is that He WILL Come and we WILL see Him as He is and we WILL be like Him(Col. 3:4, Titus 2:12-14, II Thess. 1:4-10). The Blessed Hope is NOT in the timing of His coming. Also, the Blessed Hope is for ALL true believers in Christ, not just for a select group of believers.

You well know, from the website I've spoken of, that MANY place their trust it seems, more in the timing of His Coming, than in His Coming and their present walks (Titus 2:12, I Jn. 2:28-29). They believe themselves to be the church in Philadelphia, yet they can't see that the majority of the Western Church in no way, shape, or form looks like the Church described in Rev. 3:7-13. Instead,it looks very much like the church of Laodicea.

The truth is that prior to the 1800's, the Church of Jesus Christ never taught a pre-trib gathering of the saints to heaven. What the early church as well as reformation church taught was that the TRUE Church would suffer under anti-christ until the coming of the Lord in Glory and judgment----then the saints of God would be rescued/delivered and the world judged.

The newer teachings on His coming(pre-trib rapture, mid-trib rapture, multiple raptures, etc), I believe, cannot be biblically supported----especially when one has a firm grasp on WHO is the Church/Body of Christ. When one understands this, one cannot do anything but believe that when He comes, it will be to gather together ALL that are in Him---the living and the dead(I Thess. 1:10, II Thess. 2:1, James 5:7, Mt. 24:30-31, Mk 13:27, I Thess. 4:14-15, Acts 3:19-21, Eph. 4:4-6)). That cannot happen at a pre-trib rapture, unless one believes that those who may come to faith during a "trib" time are not members of the Body of Christ. Personally, I don't see anywhere in scripture where God separates believers into different "camps".......one camp being the "church" and the other camp being "trib saints"..........if one is a "saint"--in Christ, they ARE a member of the Church/Body of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23, Col. 1:18). :-)


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Cindy

 2006/8/19 11:30Profile





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