I must say Brother Paul, I enjoy reading your posts. Many times you just take the words right out of my mouth and say them far better than I could.
| 2006/8/10 11:39||Profile|
I have had a few bad "experiences" with David Hogan. He came to our Church several years ago. In fact, he lives nearby (or at least, used to live nearby), and I have wanted to find his house to speak with him about my concerns. I actually went to Raymondville and searched for him, but no one there seemed to even know who he is. However, by the way he goes about claiming his "authority as a man of God," I am not too certain that he would even listen to my concerns. However, I don't really feel the need to write again about this topic. If you want to read about my experiences and subsequent concerns, you can simply use the search feature and find the other threads about him.
The following is my opinion:
Has David Hogan raised 350 people the dead? Of course not! Don't you think that, if he even raised 100, 50 or even 5 people from the dead -- more people would have heard about it?!?
I live near Mexico, and most of it is not nearly the "backward country" that people in the United States seem to think. If people in the places that he claims to have raised the dead had actually seen this -- they would have spread the word! The news media in Mexico relentlessly follows stories about religioius images on tortillas, vegetables and rocks. If the media had heard anything remotely close to actual miracles being performed by Mr. Hogan, they would have searched for this man with great haste. I do not say this lightly, since I have traveled to Mexico with credible and sincere missionaries on many occasions. We have labored building church buildings, water pumps and houses for pastors primarily with the indigenous tribes like the Tarahumara.
Many of these missionaries and local pastors are very humble and sincere individuals with hearts that truly seek after the Lord. Yet the only opinions that we seem to have heard from these individuals in Mexico is less than favorable of Mr. Hogan.
Do I truly believe that David Hogan raises the dead? In all honesty, I must say no. But don't get me wrong -- I know that God can raise the dead. I believe that God still performs miracles and have seen things that would probably be just as easily scoffed. But the underlying message of true repentence seems lacking in Mr. Hogan's messages. After having attended several of his meetings, I haven't heard him speak about much except for boasts about physical manifestations of the supernatural. A local pastor in Mexico, after asking him about what he knew of Mr. Hogan, smiled and told me, "[i]A man of God who truly works for the Lord doesn't need to go around wildly boasting about what he does for the Lord[/i]."
I have often wondered why people don't get so excited about stories of a minister that truly and effectively preaches repentance? It often seems like the stories of true repentance do not excite us as much as tales of physical manifestations of the supernatural.
Please don't misunderstand this post. I often sincerely pray for David Hogan. I will continue to pray that God will reach out to him (and vice versa). But I do not believe that we should "chase the wind" in matters such as these. Instead, let us continue to seek the Maker of the wind.
| 2006/8/10 11:55||Profile|
but we can never forsake the Scriptures we need to esteem
Amen! It is a sad day indeed when people would rather exalt their subjective experiences over God's Word when God Himself has magnified His Word above His Name (Psalm 138:2).
People who love God's Word more than all riches are accused of "Bibliolatry." It is the Word that imparts faith (Romans 10:17) and not miracles or experiences. "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lazarus who had died and went to heaven) to my father's house. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, 'They have Moses and the prophets (the Word of God); let them hear them.' And he said, 'Nay, father Abraham: but [i]if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent[/i].' And he said unto him, "[i][b]if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rise from the dead[/b][/i]." (Luke 16:27-31).
If we want to win the lost we must use the Word of God!
Grace and peace
| 2006/8/10 12:53||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
"A man of God who truly works for the Lord doesn't need to go around wildly boasting about what he does for the Lord."
Speaks volumes to all sorts of matters. Well said.
| 2006/8/10 14:58||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
This is just the problem...too many 'moves' of God today don't have both. Power of signs is in fashion...but holiness, the power of Godliness holds little attraction for most of the leading and influencial supernatural ministries in America today.
[b]"...the power of Godliness holds little attraction for most of the leading and influencial supernatural ministries in America today."[/b]
Brother this rings very true in my heart and experience, I thank you for wording it so clearly.
Sings and wonders are supposed to follow the preaching of the Word, but where are they? When they do show up, people criticize them. Sometimes one person brings the Word and the other brings the signs and wonders.
But the question can be simply asked why do spiritual signs and wonders happen sometimes through vessels are are clearly teaching error and false doctrines. The Spirit of Truth is the one that leads into all truth and also has manifestations such as healing, prophecy, etc. But He is the Spirit of [b]Truth[/b] primarly! without that foundation the building crumbles.
I appreciate your passion for reading the Gospels. I pray we thirst more and more for Jesus' words of life.
Paul, I appreciate this also and it encourages me to hear it, may we be those that meditate constantly on Scripture that we may do the exploits that are shown in them. Not in our own strength but may we have our faith built to a place where God can do them.
Respectfully, my question is, what kind of supernatural power manifests itself without first being preceeded by a Christ-conformed character?
This [b]is[/b] the question at hand and we need to answer it according to the Scriptures.
Some say we need "both"...holiness and power, but truthfully which is vital to know God, and to gain heaven? Is it possession of supernatural power, or is it possession of Godliness?
Possion of Godliness, as I heard one saint of God say that it is required to have sanctification to go to heaven. Can we be justified and not sanctified? by no means. All those that are justified (made right with God) are sanctified (brought to Christ-likeness), sanctification I would say is not based on power but on Christ-likeness (godliness) conformity to the likeness of Christ, ie the fruits of the Spirit.
This is a message that needs to be trumpeted to alot of circles that are focusing on: signs, signs, signs!
Obedience brings possession
Possession brings Christlikeness
Christlikeness brings power
We have plenty of doctrine and theology in America, what we don't have is the genuine power. Mostly because people separate the 2. The power is delegated to the nuts while the suits have all the doctrine. We need to get over that. I made a decision to go after the power of God for myself. If nobody will be a good example of holiness and power, then I guess I'll need to be.
That is my plea, to have both in operation and that is what I am personally seeking in my life. But why again is there a lack of desire for [b]TRUTH[/b] in circles that are operating fully in this power and the manifestations of it. I have a hunger to know God, to know the apostolic doctrines and walk in apostolic power, this desire leads me to read the bible, read church history, I have a hunger for to read books of people that knew God in history. People like: John Wesley, John Calvin, Issac Watts, Andrew Bonar, David Brainerd, etc but the way people write in these books that they wrote people in the modern day have no endure to read them or desire after them.
We have as a product of modern day christianity that has supposed power, books coming out in paperback quality, double spaced with fluff and fanciful stories, but let us contrast that with some old work on Holiness or the Majesty of God which is 1000 pages and full of depth and insight into the character of God.
Why is holiness shuned in the modern day movements where God Spirit is supposedly working in manifestations and miricales. How can the [b]Holy[/b] Spirit be working in such places and vessels that are no honourable (holy and set apart).
I just see such a desparity in our modern day movements where people say that God is working even beyond the church history 200 years ago or even such statements as beyond the apostles. How blind we simply have become to believe that we have reached somewhere, when in reality we are going backwards so fast that its unconcievable.
ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Secondly, why is there not more rejoicing over "350 Changed From The Dead"?
We are not compartmentalized saints, we may act and or think that way
If I can speak for others on SI, I believe [b]many[/b] on sermonindex are seeking for true spiritual power over sin, power to minister to the lost and a experience of Apostolic Christianity in our modern day. But there is a caution with so many false and spurious subsitutes that have been crying out to us "this is it!" , "this is what God is doing!". God has been raising a remenant of people that are yearning for a real move of God, a revival that changes society, conforms people into godliness and Christlikeness and brings power over sin, and yes signs do follow and we are not [b]unbelieving[/b] for them. But we want a true represtation of them, we want God to come down, and He will.
Keep persevering in prayer saints for revival and God to come He will and when the true light comes it will reveal and expose all false.
Few of God's ministers seem to have this kind of balance. Lake and Wigglesworth were among the few in the forefront of pioneer Pentecostalism.
I agree fully there have been some that have really walked in a fulness that the world has marvelled and said is not "God among us."
SI Moderator - Greg
| 2006/8/10 15:28||Profile|
Brother greg mentioned this..
..and yes signs do follow and we are not unbelieving for them.
Just thought to add here that the signs that follow [b]may[/b] not be what we would expect either. I think of the descriptions of the supernatural from Duncan Campbell some of which are not at all what one might expect, or for that matter, what you often hear of in pagan lands, the latter being more in harmony with those things which accompanied the expansion of the primitive Church in pagan lands.
Perhaps the Lord is pleased to work in every time and place according to what is better suited to the particular dispostion and spiritual character of the people amongst whom He is choosing to dwell.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2006/8/10 15:56||Profile|
It's kind of sad that we have to go seeking after signs and wonders when God want us to seek after Him. He tells us to seek FIRST the kingdom of God, not signs and wonders.
I saw a girl, who was near blind, get healed. This was some years ago. The healing was verified medically, so there is documentation to support the healing.
As it is, I don't know if she is serving God today, I don't remember her getting saved, just healed.
Another lady I knew, was born with a deformed leg. She was saved, had prayer for her disability, but was never healed.
She died last year of cancer.
What difference does it make whether you are healed or not if you die and go to hell?
At least with the sister who never got healed, she is where we are all striving to go now.
As for the other one, who knows?
Let us seek the Giver, not the gift. God bless.
| 2006/8/10 16:00||Profile|
God bless you for sharing that, I hope that encourages a lot of people to seek nothing but christ.
| 2006/8/10 16:03||Profile|
Just in case nobody saw it in the other post:::
I have an idea...it's very easy to talk negative about another person, especially when he can't defend himself. A good quote from Bill Johnson comes to mind when he says..."Anybody digging can find dirt, it takes skill to find the gold."
So let's just take David completely out of the equation because I know he stirs a lot of people's water and 350 raised from the dead is a large claim. Let's bring it down to reality, where we live:
I think the crowd around here is different than other message boards. Let's all discuss our fruit from our own obedience to Matt 10:8. Instead of talking about other people's numbers, let's talk about our own. I'll go first.
Heal the sick: I've prayed for 9 this past month after deciding to "Go" according to verse 7, none of them instantly healed.
Raise the dead: 0 [never attempted]
Cleanse the lepers:0 [never attempted]
Drive out demons: I've tried, but 0
Sounds like I have some work to do, don't you think?
I've been on purpose seeking God with diligent prayer and a fasting lifestyle for the past 2 years. God has taught me a lot, but I don't have any fruit. I finally realized that God can't heal anybody while I'm in my closet. So last month I decided to just go out there and see what I could do. I grab my homemade tracts, my wife and son and we go out to the public to see if God will show up. This is what I do, I look for any visibly sick or hurt person and that's my cue, I go up to them and talk about Jesus and ask if I can pray for their healing.
So far I've probably let about 50 people walk by without me doing a single thing! You know why? Fear of man, I never knew I had it so much until I went to pray for the sick. I've done Ray Comforts method and it's easy, you just follow the steps, but this is different. You're no longer relying on yourself but you're FORCED to rely on God because there is NOTHING in you that can heal a broken arm or leg. It MUST come from GOD.
Uhoh...what happens when nothing happens?? Is it God's fault? Nope, read what happened when the disciples couldn't heal the boy at the bottom of the mountain. It's my fault. There is a bottleneck somewhere, and it's somewhere in me. Does that mean I stop, no. It means that I press forward and deal with my problem of unbelief.
Listen, the world deserves the demonstration of the Kingdom! Not just self-help principles and a different way to live their life. They deserve to see God. That's exactly why Jesus came. The Father DESIRED to show Himself to the world. And He did!! Jesus said His miracles were a witness that He was from the Father...what is our's?
I just put up a new quote on my blog where David talks about whether people will believe what he's saying is true or not...he says that you won't really believe until you get out there and make a decision to do it yourself! My old pastor said "any truth without experience will remain in doubt".
There is also another brother in Georgia (Ryan Lawson) who is influenced by Hogan and is out there on the streets presenting the Kingdom with truth AND power. Seeing miracles in the streets of America. (I;m not sure if I can link him or not, if Greg says it's ok I will, if not you can PM me). He told me "nothing can substitute just doing it." and my favorite "anything worth doing is worth doing your worst." He's the reason why I left my closet.
So let's get out there and make ourselves like fools for Christ and try to bring the Kingdom to this world!
Or, would you rather argue about it on computers?
| 2006/8/10 16:18||Profile|
[b]By JoeA from the "I have an idea" thread:[/b] As i said, signs do accompany the preaching of the Gospel, but the signs should not be thought of as what causes people to believe.
So, do signs accompany our preaching? If not, is that ok and acceptable?
When Jesus healed the paralytic, it was to prove that He had the power to forgive sins.
This is EXACTLY the point. The physical power over the man's sickness proved to show what was available in the spirit. It is far easier to say "your sins are forgiven" than it is to say "get up and walk".
So, what I am saying is, the world deserves the same treatment. It's one thing to try to tell someone they've sinned and fallen short of God's standards and need a saviour and then just asking them to believe it based on your word. It's a whole other thing to say "To prove to you that God loves you and that he wants to make you whole spiritually, watch as I demonstrate that he wants to make you whole physically as well." This is exactly what Jesus did here.
This isn't about holiness or character...most of the people here have that. Anytime Ravenhill is preached we understand! Let's move on and let God develop our character AS we go!
| 2006/8/10 16:29||Profile|