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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: back to balance

Quote:
Even if I am able determine in my spirit that I am acting from love by speaking the truth at a given moment, it may, however, still prove to be highly offensive and difficult for the person on the other end.

Now I could hold the high ground and maintain my "offensive" reproof was indeed the loving thing to do and that the concerned party will someday come to realize it as they grow in grace, but in the meantime I have strained a real relationship in the Body . . . possible winning a battle to lose the war. An idealized, theoretical love fails here. Isn't observable "love" what Jesus is talking about in John 13:35:

"By this all men will know you are my disciples, if you love one another."



These thoughts cut to the core. You know, I think that many times our attempts to love are really attempts to appease our own conscience – to gain righteousness for ourselves. Really, we are at the center. We have failed to express observable love, and have actually diminished our credibility and God’s credibility.

We may believe that we are acting in love when we assert ourselves over another to take out a “speck” that they didn’t ask us to remove. We may feel we are loving when we warn others of hell and damnation. But in doing so, we may also have lost ground with them, or as you say, we have lost the war. And so, really, we come across as a resounding gong and clanging cymbal – not only to others, but to God also.
Quote:
It is in this messy relational sense that I mean "balancing" truth and love . .

I wonder if this is the essence of Paul’s directions to wives of unsaved husbands or to women in church – to be silent. There may be a universal principle here: There are times when withholding the truth you know is actually the more loving thing to do in the long run; and instead, you let your godly behavior do the talking.

Diane



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Diane

 2006/8/7 6:59Profile
mchimes
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Joined: 2006/7/20
Posts: 6


 Getting to the core

Quote:
These thoughts cut to the core. You know, I think that many times our attempts to love are really attempts to appease our own conscience – to gain righteousness for ourselves. Really, we are at the center. We have failed to express observable love, and have actually diminished our credibility and God’s credibility.



Diane and co.,

Let's pursue this . . . this is what I was wanting this thread to be about :)

How do you personally deal with preventing the above (condemnation) when you also feel compelled to speak out on something that may cause division. What sequence does God take you through in your spirit? Preparation? Timing? Tone?

Personal stories here would, I think, be as good or better than "the ideal" answer.

Thanks,
Mike

 2006/8/7 7:55Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Getting to the root of tainted love

Okay, I’ll run with this, but via the "ideal" first, I'm afraid:

I’m asking myself, “So how do I bash down for good my predisposition to offer tainted love?” Oh, I know the solution all right. After all Scripture shouts it from cover to cover: God loves me! God has forgiven my sins! Christ’s sacrifice was the perfect atonement! My guilt is removed! It is finished!

Yet this is all too good to be true. Surely not, Lord! Depart from me for I am a sinner! And so at times I discover myself struggling to rest in the love of Christ - though less and less as the years go by. (I used to be a walking guilt-trip). I suspect that remnants of past baggage still drag behind me.

I realize that to the extent that I am reluctant to fully let God love and forgive me, I will put my trust in myself to appease my guilt. And so my love offerings are tainted with a selfish motive.

Wouldn’t it be great if King David could come around and add to this discussion? As far as I’m concerned, he “got it”.

David said, “You desire TRUTH in the inner parts” - - truth, in this sense meaning: “honesty about oneself”.

David knew that what was in him was utter iniquity, and he craved God’s solution: “Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean (!) Wash me and I will be whiter than snow (!) “etc

David KNEW that the Lord’s redemptive forgiveness was the source of true untainted and recognizable love - a love that was effective:

“THEN I will teach transgressors your ways
and sinners will turn back to you….
THEN there will be righteous sacrifices…. ”
From Ps 51


“And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power together with all the saints,
to grasp how wide and long,
and high and deep is the love of God,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge
that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” Eph. 3:17

(PS If anyone wishes to pray for me, may this be the prayer)

I’ll come back to your questions later with examples – there are lots.

Quote:
How do you personally deal with preventing the above (condemnation) when you also feel compelled to speak out on something that may cause division. What sequence does God take you through in your spirit? Preparation? Timing? Tone?



Diane


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Diane

 2006/8/7 9:19Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: In capable hands

Well..., someone pulled the string again ...

I must say I just absolutely [i]love[/i] the way this is going. I too echo Compton's sentiment of your (Mike, strange gathering of us here...) unassuming disposition, how wonderfully refreshing!

Won't taint Diane's thoughts here with comment other than to say ... [i]me too[/i] and amen.

Quote:
What sequence does God take you through in your spirit? Preparation? Timing? Tone?



Will go way out on the limb here ... By and large and with all the exceptional clauses of the Lord not contradicting Himself evident... It almost always is the [i]opposite[/i] of what I may think in any given moment. Touched a bit earlier on it ... As Diane alluded to, silence is far more powerful than we may have ever given a great deal of thought to, the way she expressed it...

Quote:
I wonder if this is the essence of Paul’s directions to wives of unsaved husbands or to women in church – to be silent. There may be a universal principle here: There are times when withholding the truth you know is actually the more loving thing to do in the long run; and instead, you let your godly behavior do the talking.

... is very much a truth. Look at how Jesus responded, 'reacted' (a terrible sounding word here, not by way of impulse)... Have had these verse's digging deeper and deeper trenches of late;

[i]Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always [b]those things that please him.[/b][/i] Joh 8:28,29

[i]For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, [b]what I should say, and what I should speak[/b].[/i] Joh 12:49

Going back to the example of [i]opposites[/i], it is still a challenge, as you mentioned or perhaps alluded, there is an instinct that can over ride and stop us short because our self interest is at stake and therefore our concern returns back on it's own head ... we don't like 'rejection' or embarrassment or humility, make that being humilated... So we throw up a guard and are in the midst of the diabolical...

[i]For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? For if I were still pleasing men, I wouldn't be a servant of Christ.[/i] Gal 1:10

The fear of man ... Such a strange and rather silly notion, yet ...

Little off track here. The opposites that I mean are similar to the reactions Compton made earlier about business associates (know a bit of that as well brother ... a great, daily challenge).

Biting your tongue.

Another: "[i]If I don't say something about this right now then ______ will never 'get it', won't feel the guilt they should be experiencing....etc. etc. etc.[/i]

That would be the process. And generally speaking, that inward voice (The Holy Spirit) responds;

Don't do it.

Other times it is right back on the fear of man and the sense of [i]'I don't really [u]feel[/u]
like speaking right now, this will cause a hurt and....[/i]'

Speak.

Randomly, one of the things that I have found that is also a scriptural principle experienced...
To keep my mouth shut when I am fatigued or agitated, [i]be angry and sin not[/i].

Oh, there is a great deal of work to be done still.



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Mike Balog

 2006/8/7 10:28Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Getting to the core

There is an aspect to all this that I thought should be mentioned. One thing that I am brought back to when this type of situation arises concerns submission to authority.

I think many times the Lord allows these situations where we feel like we should speak out as a test to determine our brokenness before Him, especially for younger Christians. It's easy to consider ourselves more spiritual than others (even our elders) and think we have the right to speak out of that position. The Lord has shown me that I have no such right. Even Jesus submitted Himself to Mary and Joseph, He could have said "they aren't as spiritual as I am", but instead He submitted to them and ultimately to the Father's will.

This matter of submission to authority has been greatly impressed upon me of late, and not just with respect to elders in the church but also down to the usher who seats us and even out into the world, where we need to respect even the authority of a clerk in a convenience store. God is a God of order.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2006/8/7 16:17Profile
mchimes
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Joined: 2006/7/20
Posts: 6


 Re:

Quote:
One thing that I am brought back to when this type of situation arises concerns submission to authority.


Ron,

I hear you brother. I've been wrestling with this myself as part of the whole issue of renewal and how to achieve it. I read Watchman Nee's book "Spiritual Authority" last Fall (during the height of my disillusionment with the church leadership) and it was shockingly eye-opening (another YIELD sign from the Holy Spirit.) While I haven't processed all of what he claims, he maintains that to fail to recognize and submit to authority is essentially to operate by a Satanic principle. How's that for candor!

Heres a quote:

"We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us"

Of course, his view is extreme and leaves little room for movement in horrific situations like Nazi Germany.

Thanks for bringing this up. On a side note, I recently looked up every occasion and context of Jesus' use of the word "Faith." From these accounts, the theme of "recognizing and submitting to authority" was often one of the main differences between those whose faith he commended and those whose faith he disparaged.

This kind of ties in to what Diane was saying about needing to assert ourselves in a situation rather than let God do his work . . . could it be that we are actually displaying a failure of faith in God when we act in this way?

Mike

 2006/8/7 22:03Profile
mchimes
Member



Joined: 2006/7/20
Posts: 6


 Re:

Quote:
I wonder if this is the essence of Paul’s directions to wives of unsaved husbands or to women in church – to be silent. There may be a universal principle here: There are times when withholding the truth you know is actually the more loving thing to do in the long run; and instead, you let your godly behavior do the talking.



First off, what a delight to engage such thoughtful and pleasant people :) You don't find this everywhere!

I am getting confused though at exactly how many "Mike's" are in our conversattion!

Good observation above Diane . . . I was just thinking of Paul's sharp rebuke in 1 Corinthians concerning the man being immoral with his father's wife (5:1.) He states the truth and renders his reproof. Then he comes back in 2 Corinthians and tells them to "forgive and comfort him." (2:7) So it was an issue of timing and applying force, then forgiveness.

This is what I mean when I say "balance" . . . by the way, would the following analogy settle the internal semantic debate about the term "balance??" . . .

Consider a see-saw . . . it is one piece (Truth & Love united . . . yeah!) but sometimes we can lean into one too much, effectively suspending the other . . . the Truth maybe grounded solid while the love floats detached (or vice-versa)

Ok . . . that was my last attempt . . . I promise :)

Mike

 2006/8/7 22:22Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
This matter of submission to authority has been greatly impressed upon me of late, and not just with respect to elders in the church but also down to the usher who seats us and even out into the world, where we need to respect even the authority of a clerk in a convenience store.


Ron, your helpful perspective is timely for me... eventually I'm going to have to serve people. :-) What is Jesus teaching us by being the first to wash dirty feet!? "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

Quote:
I am getting confused though at exactly how many "Mike's" are in our conversation!



And a big welcome, newest Mike, to the richest fellowship in cyberspace. (IMHO):-D

MC (Mike)


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Mike Compton

 2006/8/8 0:47Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Show respect, even when it doesn't seem to be deserved

“Show proper respect to everyone...
honor the king (WHAT!)” 1 Pet 2:17
“Love always protects”

Scriptures like these become even more important to me when I view people as damaged goods. Surely God has given such words to us in order to keep us from inflicting further damage, and to promote healing. I know that I’ve sometimes been like a bull in a china shop, clumsily damaging the delicate and valuable goods. Really, this behavior seems to be a cultural norm – especially in the way parents treat their delicate wee ones. ….There are so many charging bulls, so much controlling behaviors, so much wounding of the delicate spirit…

I value the Biblical cautions to women – to have a quiet spirit. Our modern world of women’s lib seems to produce assertive women, now climbing the man’s ladder, and even out-climbing them. Women have lost their quiet tenderness. We live in an age of absentee or weak fathers, leaving mothers to rule the roost alone. They may become controlling. Children sustain the damage – especially the boys. Years later these men become our church leaders. I don’t want to generalize, just point out that it is a very real problem, and a reason why we women can’t just boldly tell the “truth” like it is. There are barriers, and we may only make bigger barriers.

Thankfully God has put several of these kinds of men (damaged goods) across my path over the course of my life - I believe to tone me down. Here is an example:

I remember years ago being deeply troubled by my pastor who was acting like a bull in a china shop. So one day I asked the Lord what I could do about it. God said, “Minister to him”. I was shocked. I thought that HE was supposed to be the one ministering to me. That’s when I suddenly saw my self-centeredness in full color. Really, I had never cared two hoots about my pastor – except for what he should be doing for me. Really, he was a wounded man who had never forgiven his mother. He wasn’t open to any other “mother” trying to help him along. I had to learn to view him as a fellow human being who needed my respect.

Many, many times the Lord has literally shut my mouth when I was about to address an issue. God knew that it just wasn’t the right time, or maybe I wasn’t the right person. I trust God to put a check on me. He can certainly deal with people better than me.

Sometimes, he does indeed use me to speak into issues. Here is a unique example:

One Sunday I was sitting in the church kitchen watching the women prepare for a dinner. I was quite ill and weak at the time. Yet, suddenly I jumped up, walked directly to an older lady (who I knew only by name). I put my hands on her arms and firmly but warmly said, “My dear, you don’t need to be working in this kitchen. Now, go get a plate and some food, and go and sit down and enjoy the dinner.” She promptly followed my orders.

The other ladies were amazed. I discovered that Mrs. B had been controlling the kitchen for years, and alienating many. I didn't have a clue about this. One lady said, “ She’s not even supposed to be here today. She’s not on our team. But she always takes over. We’ve been trying to tell her, but she just gets offended, so now everyone is afraid to talk to her. You’re the first person she’s ever listened to.”

God has ways, doesn’t he?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/8/8 8:02Profile
enid
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Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England

 Re: Balancing Truth and Love

Proverbs 27v5 'Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed'.

 2006/8/8 9:14Profile





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