| Rapture and 1st resurrection|
Concerning the rapture. There are many scriptures to start at to teach the truth of the "timing" of the event. I will start by saying that the rapture and the 1st resurrection are the same thing. The 1st resurrection takes place at the "end", chap 20, of Revelation. Next Paul warns in the letter to Thess not to be decieved by people who say it has already happened. He points out that the dead in christ rise first then we who are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If you look at this as well as Rev 20:1-6 the first ressurection, you have a match. I know I have probably not explained this point very well but if you look at the teaching of the first ressurection you will see who is there. Then look at the time that it takes place and it should make sense. More later if anyone wants to discuss it. Lord bless, John
| 2006/8/4 7:50|
| Re: Rapture and 1st resurrection|
How do you see Rev 20 combining with 1Thes 4?
People who cannot separate the rapture have the Old and New mixed as do the mix Law and Grace. This commingling of old and new destroys the rapture, the tribulation and the Reign of Christ on this earth for 1000 years and the final judgment and puts them all together.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/8/5 1:14||Profile|
I have heard so many opinions on this, but I am willing to hear anyone out that will spell it out. I wanted someone to do this before but everyone would get into arguments about details on one event and quote 30 verses from a chapter that contain one about the 'event.'
If you would, post the event, with the matching Scripture verse, and then maybe a couples lines to help in make sense.
1) Rapture (Scripture) comments comments
2) Trib (Scripture) comments on why it occurs next
3) Millenial Reign (Scripture) why it happens after trib
I tried to ask people to do this the last time around, and everyone would get off on these arguments about pre vs post, etc. I would just like to see it painted out simply, but including every future event (rise of Antichrist, trib, 1000 year reign, 1st and 2nd resurrection, etc).
Thanx ahead of time.
| 2006/8/5 2:05||Profile|
Hello to letsgetbusy, Your request is exactly what is needed in this format however it may take me a few days to a week to compile and put it in. I am over hear in Iraq and I am not always able to emmediatly reply. I will try and do my best to answer your request. I will finish with this for now. Over the past twenty years I have experienced that the rapture question is a highly emotional one for various reasons. However logical and scriptural a presentation I may give it will not always win out to emotion. I caution all of us to be aware of; pride, "well I've been teaching it this way for years and I'm not changing now" Fear," I don't want to have to face persecution under antichrist" However in the middle or end of the discussion if a person still wants to belive in pre tib rapture I say fine Lord bless you but please extend the courtesy to me. Don't say I can't see the grace of God or I mix law and grace etc. I have to go for now but I will get back as soon as I am able. God bless, John
| 2006/8/5 2:22|
Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: rapture|
I do not believe that the bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, altho it is the most widely taught "theory" in scripture. I believe some of the leading personalities in Christendom today are teaching a false interpretation of this event. At the very least, a close look at Matthew 24, right from the lips of Jesus, clearly shows a steady progression of events, including tribulation, culminating in the "rapture" that happens in verse 31.
I do not think personal mis-understanding of the rapture is a problem, it becomes a problem when you teach it as doctrine, and it is not. Danial chapter 12 has some wonderful insights as well. Let scripture speak for itself, read, pray, and trust you will get insight.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
| 2006/8/5 10:50||Profile|
First Question: Is Israel and the Church the same? Second Question: Are the promises and covenants to Israel for the Church, the Body of Christ. Etc. Does Israel before the Cross have a born again promise in effect. Is it the same as Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Was Israel crucified with Christ? Is the born again believer a new creature?
Just a few to start with.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/8/5 13:58||Profile|
| Re: end times questions|
Hi, John, I must admit, that Im one of those who have become weary of discussing these issues. Yet, I think it is good that you seek to resolve them in your own mind.
I dont want to give you my opinion, just give some thoughts for your own search:
Give priority to what is repeated frequently throughout Scripture. Its repeated for a reason: because, to God, it is important for you to know. Also distinguish between explicit and implicit interpretations. Explicit means: what is actually said. Implicit means: what is not said directly, but is implied. So if a popular teaching arises from an implicit interpretation of an obscure verse, you need to put your red flags up. It could become the ingredient of a heresy.
So, Ill pick one of the topics: the millennium
How frequently is the word, Millennium, or the concept found in Scripture?
What did Jesus teach about it?
What did Paul teach about it?
What did the prophets say about it?
The book of Revelation is highly symbolic. It is filled with pictures that portray events in the eternal realm. Should we take one part of the book: the 1000 years and interpret that literally - making 1000 earth years. What about the verse that says, To God a year is like a thousand years, and vice versa.
Also, if the time frame of the thousand years is interpreted according to natural phenomena, then dont you think that the rest of the passage should be taken naturally too? So you should ask, is there really going to be an angel with a key and chain in his hands. Is there a literal Abyss in the natural realm where the devil is going to be thrown into? Are only those who were literally beheaded going to reign?
Of course it is wisest to ask God to show you what is important, and to teach you to think through HIS mind.
We have the mind of Christ 1 Cor.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Romans 12:2
God doesn't tell one person one thing and another person another thing.
| 2006/8/5 22:21||Profile|
Unless someone can prove otherwise, I would say that Israel was given all the same promises as us. The Scripture says, 'All Israel shall be saved.' To me that is all the redeemed, pre- and post- cross. I believe that they had a life changing crisis just as we do (Jacob becomes Israel, Saul becomes Paul, etc). I'm open to debate.
I would still like to see someone write out the endtimes commentary, if possible. I suppose the ones that are knowledgeable on the subject don't want to since they know another 10-page debate will begin. So...as the Lord leads us.
| 2006/8/6 16:03||Profile|
Hello letsgetbusy, I will put down a small outline. View it as several mountaintop peaks that you can look across to see the end. In between are valleys etc that have the rest of the prophetic scriptures placed. Those we can discuss later. First a quick testimony. I was saved in "87". Right before I called on the Lord to save me I had read Matthew, John and Revelation. The day I finished Revelation I reasoned to myself that all these things I had read were true and that I needed to repent and be saved. One of the things I saw was true was that I might have to got through the persecution,(tribulation). Well shortly after I was saved I got into Hal lindsey books. Hal is a pre trib rapture teacher. I allowed myself to be influenced by him on this teaching. Then a couple of years later I began to doudt about the pre trib rapture. I had gotten back to reading more of the word and in my pursuit to know all the truths of God from scripture this was one that I saw had to be adjusted back to what I originaly believed. It took me some time cuz I had to know that scripture supported scripture on this teaching. I had to see that the scriptures lined up and taught it. Which I believe do and have believed and taught the post trib rapture for the past fifteen years. There's a brief testimony for what it's worth. O.K. on with the show. As you look at the scriptures afresh try and set aside the "pre trib rapture concept and just listen/look at what the sciptures ae saying. this will be easy for some than others. Matt 24..is a miniature outline of Revelations. Read ,Matt 24:27-31 key point Jesus say "after" the tribulation...vs30..they shall see the son of man coming in the "clouds" of heaven with power and great glory! vs.31 And he shall send his angels with a great "sound of a trumpet", and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. now Acts 1:11 two men in white aparrel stand by the disciples..which also said Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,"shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. next ! Cor 15:23-26 is a very simplified explanation of the 1000 year reighn of Christ 1 Thess 4:13-18 read these vs's take note of vs 16 "shout voice of archangel "trump" of God. The dead in Christ rise 1st thenwe who are alive couaght up to meet Lord in the air. 1 Thess 5:1-3 Thief in the night (compare with Rev 16:15 at battle of armeggedon where Jesus warns I come as a thief keep watch!) 2 Thess 1:7-11 again take note "angels ..flaming fire.. taking vengence..(he takes vengence when he come's) can't do that if it's a secret silent snatching away. 2 thess 2 1-12 very important as you read note that Paul is actually waning against people saying that the rapture,1st resurection has already occured he also says let no man decieve you fo that day shall not come till the falling away and son of perdition reveals himself as sitting in the temple of God. Rev 20 1-6 details the 1st resurrection which is the same thing as the rapture and they are occuring at the "end" chap 20 of Revelation. Also the 100o year reighn is detailed here as well. now there are mor supporting scriptures in Daniel Chap 7 and 8 concerning rise of Antichrist and how he persecutes the saints. Now I know that some will not agree but ask yourself. Am I just taking what these words say at face value o am I pesupposing that the christians are gone and just identifyig these as "tribulation saints"?? You have to test all things and hold fast to what is true" according to what the s cripture says. Now you can also add church history. The church has belived for 1900 plus years that we would be here to suffer under Antichrist. The evidencs shows that this pre trib rapture dictrine is only about 150 years old. not even as old as the United states of America. something to consider. There is more that could be said but I will finish with this. Why is this such a concern? one if the pretrib rapture is not true and does not happen think of how many chrstians will fall away? They will not be prepared for anticgrist cuz they did not think they would ahve to run the race that far. Also Paul warns us not to be decieved about this teaching. Lastly like I said before if you want to remain pre trib PLEASE be courteous to post tribbers. I have had many christians right me off as a heritic and not unerst aning the grace of God just because I believed Jesus was coming "after the tibulation of those days" God bless John
| 2006/8/7 12:48|
The evidencs shows that this pre trib rapture dictrine is only about 150 years old. not even as old as the United states of America. something to consider.
I feel a need to point out that...
Ephraem of Nisibis (AD 306-373) in a sermon called "On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World" said this:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are
gathered, prior to the Tribulation that
is to come, and are taken to the Lord
lest they see the confusion that is to
overwhelm the world because of our
sins." (English translation of the Latin
text [Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20]
provided by Cameron Rhoades, Latin
instructor at Tyndale Theological
Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.)
| 2006/8/7 14:21||Profile|