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 Resurrection nationality?

Recently, the Vine has been mentioned in one or two threads, almost as if the outward natural nationality of Jesus also pertains in the Spirit. This has caused me to cast about in my mind for anything to support such a thesis, and so far, I can't find any amongst the scriptures which come to mind, which I will post below.

Previously, I approached this from a different angle, looking at what it means to be a Jew inwardly, (which thread didn't really go anywhere).

Still, I think it's relevant to this discussion, because if Gentile Christians don't understand what the law attempted to extricate from Jews in terms of their relationship with other people and God, then we (Gentile Christians) will be very dependent on scripture and leading example to guide us - whereas, we are [i]supposed[/i] to have [u]this law[/u] written in our hearts and minds, now..... FACT.


Just as a baseline, I've highlighted a line in

The Apostle's Creed.

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. [b]The resurrection of the body[/b]:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.


I have always assumed 'the resurrection of the body' meant the resurrection of MY body, yet, Jesus was unrecognisable to those who knew Him best, and Paul says

1 Corinthians 15

42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man [is] the Lord from heaven.

48 As [was] the [man] of dust, so also [are] those [who are made] of dust; and as [is] the heavenly [Man,] so also [are] those [who are] heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the [man] of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [Man.]

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed --

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."


Paul also makes a very definite distinction at the start of

Romans 9, here
4 who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] [b]the adoption[/b], the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God,] and the promises; 5 of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came,] who is over all, [the] eternally blessed God. Amen.

compared with Romans 11, when he describes the branches of the olive tree as 'natural'. Unless one is reading with understanding, one can [i][b]miss[/b][/i] that they have been cut off through unbelief, and are starting from the same position as Gentile believers who were once 'far off'.

There is also this comment about Abraham, in

Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as [in] a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;

10 [b]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God[/b].

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born [as many] as the stars of the sky in multitude -- innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced [them] and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.

15 And truly if they had called to mind that [country] from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.

16 [b]But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly[/b] [country.] Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. (NKJV)


This puts a new spin on OUT OF every kindred, etc, in the verse below, because I've always assumed there would be representation in heaven reflecting people's origins.

(KJV) Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood [b]out of[/b] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


I will leave my original question for you all to think about, and offer some scripture in support of your theses.

 2006/7/30 16:19
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re: Resurrection nationality?

Can you be a little more specific with your Question? Are you asking is Christ now in the physical or is Christ only in Spirit or are we resurrected in a physical of just in a spiritual body? What heavenly country are you speaking about?

We don't need a Law written in our hearts, only those that don't have Christ in them need law, past and present. Those old testament saints will need the Law written in their hearts, because Christ will be before them physically. Old testament saints created beings still, New testament saints Born of God being new creatures in Christ Jesus. He is in us spiritually and He is the fulfillment of the Law in us, which makes us salvation not by Law but by birth. A new commandment I give you. Love not Law. Live in the Love of God which is Christ, Live in the Law, we cannot unless the Law Himself lives through us from in us. That is why His new commandments are Love commandments not Law commandments.




In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/30 19:28Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2749
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Resurrection nationality?

Quote:
I have always assumed 'the resurrection of the body' meant the resurrection of MY body, yet, Jesus was unrecognisable to those who knew Him best, and Paul says...



Perhaps flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God but it appears flesh and bone will..
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not [i]flesh and bones[/i], as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
(Luk 24:38-41)

The spiritual body is something very other, we just don't know yet or cannot even imagine...
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain...But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual...we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1Co 15:37-49)

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
(Rom 1:4)

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:11)

In Christ,

Ron



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Ron Halverson

 2006/7/30 19:53Profile









 Re: Resurrection nationality?



I edited this post immediately I'd put it up, because it seemed a bit wordy and not clearer for all that!


Hi Ron,

In my answer to Phillip below, I hope there is a little more focus.

Quote:
Perhaps flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God but it appears flesh and bone will.

I am not disputing that there is a physical body to come, but I'm suggesting that it loses a lot of its previous identity in the transformation.


Hi Phillip,

Sorry for being too vague here. Let me answer your question
Quote:
Can you be a little more specific with your Question?

I did not intend this to be a discussion about salvation. There are plenty of threads on that.

The question in my mind is specifically around the fact that by first birth, Jesus was Jewish, but, through His death and resurrection He was 'born again', and ascended into heaven to be seated at the right hand of the Father. That was what happened to His physically resurrected body.

But what happened to His [u]outward[/u] Jewishness? EDIT: Is 'the Vine' 'Jewish'?

Since Jesus said 'I am the Vine', my question rests on the fact that none of us who are [i]born again[/i], hold a nationality in anything other but [i]name[/i], because now, we [u]are[/u] citizens of heaven, (Please see Heb 11 in my leading post) and grafted into Him - into Christ.

We know that in Christ there is no Jew nor Greek, no male nor female, no bond nor free (Gal 3:28) and Jesus told the Sadducees 'you do greatly err' when they asked Him whose wife the woman would be, who had been married to each of seven brothers.

(I am not wishing to discuss the details of [i]when[/i] our resurrection might be, but rather and simply, the matter of what difference new birth makes to us, who still have a natural body until we die, and will make to us after we lose our natural body.)

Is there any real significance to nationality or ethnicity, [i][b]in eternity[/b][/i]? Obviously, while we are alive on this earth, it is part of our identity and that of our kindred, whom we desire to come to know Christ for themselves.

But all of us should consider ourselves in the light of Paul's:

(KJV) Romans 2:29
But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

I realise that the above verse is part of Paul's thesis for [u]grace rather than works[/u], but another part is his insistence that being Jewish doesn't save you. Jesus says the same, here:


(NKJV) John 8
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How [can] you say, 'You will be made free'?"

34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

35 "And a slave does not abide in the house forever, [but] a son abides forever.

36 "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

37 " I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

38 "I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."

39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

41 "You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father -- God."

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar and the father of it.

45 "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

46 "Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 "He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."


I hope my question is clearer and other scriptures spring to mind?

 2006/7/31 7:26
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Lets start with where we are born. I was born as a created being in Oklahoma. Where are we born again? If Jesus came from God. We must be born again to see the Kingdom of God. Then our birth must come from God, Who's Seed is placed in us to give birth to a new creature. If we are new creatures and there has not been a creature as this until Christ was birthed in the believer, making Him the first, and us as a new creation in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jerusalem is a very special place in the Heart of God. Even while it is earthly God put His own special place of manifestation of Himself, The Holy of Holies in Jerusalem in the temple made with hands.

The New Jerusalem John speaks about in Revelations is a glorious spectacle, even in print. It is 375 miles L. W. H. The 12 foundations are of precious stone, and there are 12 foundations which are the apostles of the Lamb. There are 12 gates with pearls, for the 12 tribes of Israel, with angles at each gate.

If this is the place that Jesus is preparing for us then the New Jerusalem is that House. Jerusalem is a very special place in the Heart of God. If that is His Father's House then that is where Jesus is seated on the Throne at the right hand of the Father. If that is where we are seated with Christ In Heavenly Places, then the New Jerusalem is or birth Place.

When the Holy Jerusalem touches down on this earth coming down from God, all will be as God intends His house to be. Our place is in this house as son's of God. There are gates for the outside world. We are Jews who are Jews inwardly of the heart, of the New Jerusalem our home with God. It might be a new name when we get there but for now, I believe our family is Is The Jewish of God and our last name is Christ.
This does not make us earthly Jews or have anything to do with the covenants and promises for them on this earth. That is what the gates are fore. We don't need to partake of the river of life coming for the new city, because the river of live is flow from with in us by Christ in us. Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

We have no need of this river. Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
We are part of the flow, by the Christ that is in us.
In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/31 20:59Profile









 Re: Resurrection nationality?

Quote:
We have no need of this river. Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Hi Phillip,

Is not the river that flows from us, the SAME water as that river of life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb?

 2006/8/1 13:31
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
We have no need of this river. Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Hi Phillip,

Is not the river that flows from us, the SAME water as that river of life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb?



I agreed with Phillip's post up to that point. It was a good post by the way.

However, I agree with Dorcas about the river. Our Spirit is not the source of the river that flows out of us. It will pour fourth from our spirit as we partake of that heavenly river.

Just today I spoke a word in our prayer meeting that the Lord was calling us (our team) to drink from His river and not the polluted streems of religion, opinion and self exultation. It is a river from which few people currently drink. Is this new river that we are supposed to drink of the same river of life that flows from the throne of God, most likely so.


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Keith

 2006/8/1 23:13Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3707
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 Re:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Where does this river flow from, and what kind of water is it? Out of the throne and water of life.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Who were the 12 fruits for? The 12 tribes.
Who are the leaves for? The nations on the earth.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and he would have given thee living water.

How are we saved? Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Gift of God, our salvation.
Have we asked Him to save us? For the believer I am sure the answer is, Yes. If we ask what has He given us? Living Water.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

We that are in Christ, born again, saved, will never thirst. We don't need to drink for the river.

"shall give" is a weak rendering of the Greek word 1325. didomi, a better rendering would be I give him.
Search for G1325 in KJVSL
didwmi didomi did'-o-mee

a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection):--adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant,

Do we have everlasting life? Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

We already have our fruit from the tree beside the river flowing from the throne. Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We already have the river of life flowing in us, that is why I said we are part of the Flow, the first fruits of the life of Christ in the believer and already being with Christ in our Father's House not needing to partake of the river flowing from the throne. That is for Israel and the nations.

In Christ: Eternal Thirst Quenched by Christ in us. Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/8/2 1:05Profile
WorldView
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Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

We that are in Christ, born again, saved, will never thirst. We don't need to drink for the river.

We already have our fruit from the tree beside the river flowing from the throne. Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We already have the river of life flowing in us, that is why I said we are part of the Flow, the first fruits of the life of Christ in the believer and already being with Christ in our Father's House not needing to partake of the river flowing from the throne. That is for Israel and the nations.

In Christ: Eternal Thirst Quenched by Christ in us. Phillip




the water that Christ gives us is not something that we drink once and then never again, but something that we continually drink. We continually drink from the river that flows form the throne of God when we enter into His presence

The well within us has a source. If we ourselves were the source of this water, then I wouldn't see so many Christians running dry. You cannot tell me that there aren;t any Christians who are spiritually dry. Why is that, because although they have a well, they have not tapped into the flow that comes form the thone of the Most High God. Alot of people allow their wells to get polluted and stagnant by not tapping into the flow of God.

We will never thrist agin, but that does not imply that we will never drink agin, but that we will never thrist because we have the water flowing through us and we can drink at any time, and should drink as often as possible.

You assume that the same fruit that Romans 6:22 refers to is the same fruit growing on the tree of life.


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Keith

 2006/8/2 5:26Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

You have No fruit, you have no water, you have no life. You and I are nothing and never could be. There is only one life, that is Christ.
There is only one Tree, that is Christ, there is only one Fruit, that is Christ. We have been born again and Christ is in us. You have no right to use what God has birthed in you and make anything out of it except what God says it is. Christ is the living water no mater what you do with it. I choose to make Him everything that He is and live my life for the Father by the Power of His Son. The Holy Spirit says by the word of God that Jesus Christ is our life and we have no other. Run dry if you want, I choose to drink from the well of Life, Jesus Christ. He is the life that God wants to live through us. Choose pollution if you want, Christ in us is pure, Perfect, and the life we now live. Don't use your stagnant and polluted well to tell others that they cannot live a life in Christ that is not only pleasing to the Father because of the Christ that He has birthed in you. That is not believing that Christ and what He did on the Cross is enough to make you as Christ is, I said, AS Christ not The Christ. The only reason it won't is because no one will hear what God is saying to His son's, just like Israel who heard Him and saw Him and killed Him.

I assume nothing, I know that the life flowing out of me is Christ. Whether it be ROM 6:22 or Rev. It is the same Living Water and it is Christ, and it is already in my belly flowing AND giving life To all that would see Christ in me The Hope of Glory. Don't say, You are not Christ, absolutely I am Not But He that is in me Is Jesus Christ the Son of God. This is the life I choose to live in the Quickened Flesh the HOLY SPIRIT HAS SEALED ME INTO HIM.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/8/3 1:53Profile





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