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murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Rublue,

I better double up on washing my hands so I don't catch a nasty bout of alcoholism. I am saying this to show the foolishness of labeling sin a disease.

Alcoholism is not a disease. Lust is not a disease. Bitterness is not a disease. Although they can all be fatal. The wages of sin is death.

I was addicted to Crack, Cocaine, and used a host of other narcotics for years. It was not a disease I caught somewhere. It was MY bad choices to start messing around with these substances. I started smoking and drinking when I was 11 yrs. old. I "progressed" from marijuana to hallucinogens to amphetamines and everything in between.

Thanks be to God that he delivered me from those vices.

It is the world around us that tries to tell us that addictions are a disease. If it were true that it were a disease that would remove all the culpability from us. And that is exactly what the world wants; to be absolved from guilt of their choices.

"Do not be deceived:
God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature,
from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit,
from the Spirit will reap eternal life."
Galatians 6:7

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/8/2 10:24Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

Quote:

The Israelites could thank Moses for their lives, as his pleadings on their behalf prevented God from slaying them. How about Paul on the ship? If it weren't for Paul knowing the Lord, the entire ship would have sunk and all aboad would have perished. Their lives were spared as result of one man's intercession with God.




Yes, and Job too.

Job 42:8 "Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."

As well as Abraham, see Genesis 18. Of course Sodom was not saved, but but because of Abraham's standing in the gap, God was willing to have mercy on behalf of 10 righteous men in the city.


_________________
Keith

 2006/8/2 10:57Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:

{quote} Steven

I myself was a blackout drunk. Meaning just that. I would drink to a point where I did not remember hours to days.


Hey Steven, isn’t it neat that all that past guilt has been buried and drown with Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea. Those accusations from the enemy of past sins, though they are true, are buried with Christ and there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus. Before God, all those sins have been blotted out or could we say blacked out. Through confession of sin and faith in Christ, God has a blackout of our blackouts.
.................................................

{quote} Paul

Sure, I have plenty of scriptures, though you may not accept these scriptures because they do not say word-for-word: "salvations are partly the result of someone praying for us while we were yet heathen.


This would probably be my answer if I was asked the same question.

I’m convinced that revival only comes through people praying for it. It may be that God’s grace to the lost is what puts that desire in the person praying, but in my opinion from reading revival history, revival comes through someone or usually many praying for a revival.

Quite a few people that I have prayed for in the past have apparently become Christians. The obituaries of two people who I had lost contact with had become members of churches. One friend of mine from the world that I prayed about 30 years ago became a Christian about 5 years ago. These are people that I either knew from county jail time or through alcoholism. They were, like myself at the time of being around them, in sin and very blind to it. Another person who I prayed for years ago, just before his death, prayed the sinners prayer with a friend while I was there. Still I don’t have what I would call proof scriptures on this subject and don’t believe that my wanting someone to become saved is going to cause them to be saved.

Usually, when I pray for a certain person who is blinded to sin, I pray for that person to be able to see and have a fair chance to respond to the Lords words to them.


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2006/8/2 12:22Profile
Rublue
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 4
Bakersfield, California.

 Re:

Yes I know the drug scene well starting at 13, back in the 70's for decades of Hell on earth. I am not here to argue or debate. But to make light of addiction to double up on washings your hands, I just don't know. Guess I should not post and just read and listen. I am obviously seriously off on the scripture I study, as well as my career working in recovery. God Bless All!!!

Quote:

murdog wrote:
Rublue,

I better double up on washing my hands so I don't catch a nasty bout of alcoholism. I am saying this to show the foolishness of labeling sin a disease.

Alcoholism is not a disease. Lust is not a disease. Bitterness is not a disease. Although they can all be fatal. The wages of sin is death.

I was addicted to Crack, Cocaine, and used a host of other narcotics for years. It was not a disease I caught somewhere. It was MY bad choices to start messing around with these substances. I started smoking and drinking when I was 11 yrs. old. I "progressed" from marijuana to hallucinogens to amphetamines and everything in between.

Thanks be to God that he delivered me from those vices.

It is the world around us that tries to tell us that addictions are a disease. If it were true that it were a disease that would remove all the culpability from us. And that is exactly what the world wants; to be absolved from guilt of their choices.

"Do not be deceived:
God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature,
from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit,
from the Spirit will reap eternal life."
Galatians 6:7

Murray


_________________
Steven

 2006/8/2 13:40Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
One friend of mine from the world that I prayed about 30 years ago became a Christian about 5 years ago.



Praise God for this! I've been praying for my brother - a Buddhist - for about 5 years now. Those prayers you prayed 30 years ago - God didn't forget them. I look so forward to the day when my faith becomes sight. Brothers and sisters, we must pray and pray and fight and wrestle and plead and tread the powers of darkness down as we interceed for the souls of men and women. We must never give up the fight. It took Gary 30 years to see God's manifest answer. Hallelujah - what's thirty years measured up against eternity? God answers prayer and saves to the uttermost - but everything is on His timetable.

Thank you for the inspiring testimony!


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/8/2 13:43Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Rublue,

I am not here to argue either. I am clarifying that alcoholism is not a disease. If you believe differently, I trust the Holy Spirit will guide you and me into all truth.

Don't stop posting because of something I said.
We are meant to sharpen one another as iron does iron.

As someone who lived a life of addiction, I would be the last person to make light of it. I went to jail, I was homeless, I was insane, I was penniless, and I was hated.

Please don't be misguided into calling sin a disease.

In Love,

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/8/2 15:44Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

WHO HERE IS GOD? DO NOT JUDGE!!!

Which of you is perfect, holy, and without sin? Which of you can look into the heart of a person and determine the true motives? Who can do this?

There is only one who is worthy of such. There is only ONE who can save a person.

It is the decision of God to decide who is saved and who is not. We are granted God's grace, God's favor. No one is saved by your favor. Only God can determine the actions of a person.

No person on earth has the capacity, capability, or authority to say who is Christian and who is not!! You cannot judge a book by it's cover!!

Did not Abraham decieve Pharoh? Did not King David commit adultery? Did not Moses sin when he brought forth water from the rock in anger? Did not Peter deny Christ three times? And what of you? Are you without sin?

None of us can say who is Christian and who is not. None of us can say who is saved and who is not. We can only observe the fruit, and can only see a person's actions.

While a person's actions may speak to the condition of their heart, it does not tell all. And just because a person is decieved and walking in blindness under a false teacher, a false doctrine, or false organization, does not mean their heart is in the right place. There are many whose hearts are right, but minds are decieved.

We can warn others of ungodly actions, we can point out a person is a bad Christian, we can say a person is not properly following Christ, we can point people to the teachings of Christ, but only God can say a person is not saved. Only God can say a person is a Christian or not. Only God!!!

Do not be so prideful or arrogant to think that in your limited earthly wisdom you can pass judgment just because you have seen the way a person acts. You cannot see all things, and even if God Himself had granted you such knowledge, you are not in a position to make such a declaration.

YOU ARE NOT GOD! STOP JUDGING!

And stop using scripture to justify this wickedness!

In Love and In Christ,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/2 17:08Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: is sin a disease?

Quote:
And people with the DISEASE of alcoholism should be prayed for just as a person with cancer, or any other disease. A disease is defined as a illness that is both progressive and fatal.



I understand the concern about calling alcoholism or sin a disease - because that could imply that there is nothing to repent from.

Quote:
the foolishness of labeling sin a disease.


If I may, I’d like to take a stroll through scriptures and examine references that express sin as a disease:

Isaiah pronounced a dreadful diagnosis on the rebellious nation of Israel by referring to them as a wounded body:

Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart is afflicted.
From the soul of your foot to the top of your head,
there is no soundness -
only wounds and welts and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.Is. 1:5,6

Jeremiah also pronounced an utterly hopeless diagnosis on the rebellious nation of Israel:

"Your wound is incurable,
your injury beyond healing.
There is no one to plead your cause,
no remedy for your sore, no healing for you." Jer. 30:12

"Since my people are crushed, I am crushed;
I mourn and horror grips me.
Is their no balm in Gilead?
Is their no physician there?" Jer. 8:21,22

Jeremiah spoke about heart disease (spiritual of course):

"The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure." Jer. 17:9

For sure, you here who have shared about your struggle with substance addictions know literally how true the following verse is:

The wages of sin is death.

Sin is a terminal condition. Bandaids and aspirin don’t work. Yet people offer remedies like that:

“Prophets and priests alike all practice deceit.
They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
Jer. 6:15.

The prophets warned them that their remedies wouldn’t work:

"... [they are] not able to cure you,
not able to heal your sores." Hosea 5:13

The prophets also foreshadow a remedy was coming that would work:

"...the leaves are for healing..." Ezekiel 47:12

"I will restore you to health and heal your wounds..."
Jer. 30:17

"By his wounds we are healed." Is. 53:5

The cure is a heart transplant.

"I will give you a new heart
and put a new spirit in you.
I will remove your heart of stone
and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my Spirit in you
and move you to follow my decrees..." Ez. 36:26
"I will put my law in their minds,
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God and they will be my people.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and remember their sins no more."
Jer. 31:33,34

This cure is available to anyone!

"The tree of life ...and the leaves of the tree
are for healing of the nations.Rev. 22:3

Sadly, many refuse the cure, and so on the final day, they will have no remedy:

"... in that day he will cry out, "I have no remedy." Is. 3:7

You may be rolling your eyes by now. But wait, I add one more point and it relates to Murray’s comment:
Quote:
If it were true that it were a disease that would remove all the culpability from us.

Murray, may I suggest that we refer to sin as a fatal disease which has infected us through and through. We don’t have much choice about having this sin disease and all the bad effects, but we do have the choice of choosing God’s remedy.

It’s sort of like, this: It doesn’t make much difference if you have cancer because you smoked recklessly or because of pollution or a congenital weakness. But it makes a huge difference if you accept or reject the cure. And THAT is the responsibility of each sinner. Doesn't that give hope to the alchoholic?

Does that make sense?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/8/2 17:21Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Diane,

I understand where you are going with that line of reasoning. The key words used in the scriptures you cited were "injury, wound, etc.", which are distinctly different than a disease.

You nailed it when you said "calling it a disease, implies there is nothing to repent from"(my paraphrase). Which is exactly my point.

The sinful nature is like a disease, especially to our spiritual well being. But calling each sin itself a disease implies you do not have a choice to give in to it or to abstain.

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/8/2 17:32Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
"calling it a disease, implies there is nothing to repent from"



Murray, This is not MY thought, just what some fear would happen by using health-related words to express a sin condition.

I see no difference in any of the health related terms – illness, disease, malady, injury, wound. Which ever way, the sinner still has the responsibility of accepting the cure. That IS repentance. Repenting from certain sinful behaviors - ie, stopping them - just won’t cure the disease. I know some former alcoholics who stopped drinking and then became workaholics. They still needed the cure.

A recovered alcoholic who works with alcoholics once said to me that he sees far better and more permanent results by referring to alcoholism as an illness. I guess that is because you have to recognize the utter hopelessness of your condition before you are ready to accept the cure. So long as you still believe that maybe YOU can fix yourself up, you will remain in bondage.

Does that make sense? Don’t you think that God had a good reason to refer to sin as a fatal malady? Why not read through those verses again, and see it they twig in a different way now.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/8/2 21:24Profile





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