the one from the 'not-truth' bible?
You quoted Scriptures from here and from there, but I still don't understand why you should bother since you don't think the Bible is truth, or all truth. You claimed the Blood of Christ but you would not own The written Word, I find that extremely disturbing.
I have to be honest, at this point, I have trouble addressing you as a brother in Christ. I'm sorry.
I will only pray.
Thanks too for your patience.
| 2006/8/18 15:16||Profile|
We only know 'his' word through 'their' word.
Well, this may be true for you, but is quite different for me. I know Him personally. I know Jesus and His word because His Spirit dwells in me.
I didn't need to read the bible to know Jesus. In fact, no one can know Jesus by reading the bible. They can know about Him. They can read His claims and hear all about His life. However, to truly know Jesus is to be united as one with Him. It is to have His Spirit living inside.
Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus proceeds from the mouth of God. He comes out of the mouth of God. The words of the bible came from God, but they did not come out of God's mouth. They came out of the mouths of men and women. God used men to speak. God put the word in their mouth, and they spoke. On top of this, the bible is a record of those words. Writing is a collection of symbols that represent words. Reading a sheet of music is not the same as hearing a symphony.
The Word of God that comes out of His mouth, Jesus, is the perfect expression of God. He is absolutely perfect in every way.
The words of the bible have come from God, but they have come through men. Are we to say these are also perfect in every way? Are they equal with Jesus?
This is an important distinction. We have Jesus who is the Word of God, and we have the testimony of Jesus. This is highlighted in
Revelation 1:9 (NAS) "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."
And in Revelation 6:9(NAS)
"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;"
The testimony of Jesus is given in order that we may believe as outlined by Paul in Romans 10. The Word of God (Jesus), which proceeds from the mouth of God, is what we believe in. The testimony leads us to Jesus. The Word of God is what abides in us as established in (1 John 2:14). Matt 4:4 says we need to live off the word of God, and not bread alone. In John 6, Jesus establishes that He is the bread from heaven. We need Jesus.
The bible has come from God and it bears a message concerning God's Son. However, the bible is not God's Son. Believing in the bible is not the same as believing in Jesus. A person may believe the bible is true, but does Jesus live inside them? Has that person accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is true. However, they believe in their own understanding of it.
Here is the difference. The bible is filled with words. These words come together to create a message. The message is from God. God has spoken concerning His son by means of His Spirit. This message was put on the lips of men and woman. They spoke in their own words the message they were given by the guidance, remembrance, and teaching of the Holy Spirit.
The words bear the message of God. The words try to communicate God's message. But the words themselves are not from God. They are the words of men and women. The message is from God.
The message is given in order to communicate. This means they must be recieved. A person must recieve them. Once they are recieved, it then requires a response. Will you accept them or deny them?
First comes understanding. A person must hear the message and understand. I can read the bible day and night my entire life and never understand it. Instead, as many religions do, I can add to it. I can say, "The message of these words is this...." and be completely wrong.
Understanding comes from the Holy Spirit. And so, for a person to hear the message from God that is in the bible, they must have discernment from the Holy Spirit. This may come from the Spirit, or from the Spirit using another person to explain it.
Second comes the response. The message points to Jesus. Will you accept Jesus? Will you accept the message? Will you believe in Him?
I have known people who have understood the message well, but have blantanly rejected it.
Once we believe, the message becomes true in us. We share in the experience of Christ dying and being raised. We are born again.
However, the message cannot come by our own human understanding. We cannot simply read the bible and understand. The Holy Spirit must guide us.
Reading the words of the bible and taking them in as information is not enough. Believing the bible is true is not enough. We need to believe in the message. The message says God is true.
This disctinction of the message is important. If we go around saying the bible is the way to God, and preach, "This is the Word of God", then we are promoting the idea that anyone can read the bible and find God.
God has spoken and it has been recorded. The bible is merely a recording. It is not the actual thing. This is why it is so important for people to understand that if you want to hear God or to know God, you can only do so through Jesus Christ. You must call upon Jesus.
You cannot simply sit down and read the bible and know the truth or hear the Word of God. Indeed, there is a message from God in the bible. However, this message is spiritually discerned.
When we sit down to read the bible, we should not be looking at it saying, "What does this say?" but rather, we should ask "What is God saying?"
The bible is a testmony of Jesus (given by God), and it is important that people know this. They need to know that the Word of God needs to be inside of them before they can read the bible and hear the Word of God. You cannot hear the Word of God, unless you have Him. We need Jesus.
I hope this helps better explain what I am trying to communicate by all this. I am not trying to attack the bible. In fact, I am trying to defend it. I am trying to help people understand that the bible is just a book with words unless you have Christ. You need Jesus. The bible has authority once Jesus has been accepted, not because we are ruled by the bible, but because the Word of God abides in us. We have submitted unto Christ and He works in us.
I submit this to you in love,
| 2006/8/18 16:53||Profile|
I am not at war with you, and I do understand your concern. Please do pray, as I need it.
I have made this appeal to others, and often I forget to add this:
I am not against the bible, and I am not saying it is false. I am not saying it is garbage. On the contrary, I love the bible. I have many different versions and read it quite often. I cherish every word. Please don't mistake me.
I believe the bible is true, but I don't believe it is the truth. There is a difference. If the bible is "the truth", then it is perfect down to every last letter. We know this is quite impossible because if that were true, there would be only one version. There are many different versions with discrepencies between them. Which one is "the truth"?
I believe the bible bears a message from God. This message is written in the words of humans. The message speaks of Jesus, God's son.
Jesus is "the truth" as written in the bible. He is the one we base all our faith upon. We believe in Jesus. We pray to Jesus. We worship Jesus. We give our lives to Jesus.
The testimony of Jesus is recorded in the bible. This testimony is given so that we may believe in Him. This is the message of God. It comes through the bible, and if we believe in the message, it then beckons a response from us. The message proposes this question: Will you believe in Jesus?
I suppose another way of saying it is like this....we may know the message in our mind, but will we accept it in our heart?
When we accept this message of Jesus into our heart, when we have faith and beleive in Him, Jesus then makes our faith true. He fulfills the message. He comes to us and changes us. He makes us into a new person. As such, the Word of God abides in us.
I hope this helps,
| 2006/8/18 17:09||Profile|
I am not at war with you either! I don't even know you except for what your words proclaimed. :) Should our Christ be the same one, how can we be but be at peace, for HE is the Prince of peace.
I don't know how to fellowship with you or with those who believe the same as you. It is a Christian's joy and privilege to fellowship around the Word, because of the Word, and saved by the Word (The written and the living Word), not one without the other. If the Bible is not total Truth, what are we doing?
It matters not to me what your viewpoints are or how brilliantly they are presented, they are neither sound or true. I'm sure you won't mind me telling you that your words on this thread are not the truth, since you told us that the Word of God is not the truth.
It doesn't matter if you tell me that my words are not the truth, because GOD had already told me and us that "All man are liars", but I doubt if you are willing to believe that, because it's probably the part of Bible where might not be true to you.
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; AS IT IS WRITTEN, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.[/b]
No more, believe what you wish, God is the judge, and each of us will be held accountable for what we post and how we live, but no, I'm not at war with you, I don't dare.
| 2006/8/18 17:51||Profile|
I don't think I have anything more to say to you. You have driven a wedge between the Christ of history and the Christ of experience and there is no way of knowing who you are talking about. I do not know what you mean by "Christ". I fear 'he' may be just a product of your imagination.
You might read an article that Greg added to the Text Sermons some time ago called [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14601]Receiving Christ[/url] Beyond this I have nothing more to say to you. You have put your own inner witness above the witness of the chosen witnesses of Christ; we have nothing to talk about.
| 2006/8/18 18:04||Profile|
Dear Philologos and mamaluk,
I will make one more appeal to you, on behalf of Christ who has given me this commission. I plead with you in love. I do not know how to put this in words so that your heart to believe. Alas, I suppose that is not my position, I am only to preach.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God. He is the gospel. God sent His son to die for our sins so that we may be redeemed. Our redemption comes in what Jesus did. That is the message. If we believe this, if we believe in what Jesus did for us, then we are saved. If we believe in the gospel, we are saved. If we believe this message as sent from God, then we are saved.
This event occurred many years ago. Obviously, we were not there to witness this event. And so God chose people to partake in this, to be witnesses that would spread His Word. Some of them preached and others wrote what they saw and heard. They have a testimony.
Yes, indeed, their witness is greater than any of those that would come. They witnessed Christ in the flesh as a man. They witnessed His death and resurrection. Every testimony there after, including Paul is only of Christ in the Spirit. These men, however, carry with them a greater testimony.
The Word of God is Jesus. He is the gospel of God. However, how is this message going to be spread throughout all nations in all time? Jesus needed only to die once. This means that in order of people to know of this event, of what happened, of what God has done, it must be shared through word.
Jesus is God's Word. And yet, the telling of this, the telling of God's Word comes through our word. The gospel has been spread through humans. When each of the gospel writers sat down to write of Jesus, they were writing in their own words by the guiding of the Holy Spirit. They were writing about Jesus giving a testimony of Him. They were giving a testimony of the Word of God.
There is a small difference here that is important. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and He is embodied in Spirit. The apostles were writing about Jesus. Their writings are about Jesus, but they are not Jesus Himself.
This is important. The true Word of God, the true message of God, is Jesus. The apostles were telling about Jesus.
The only way I can tell you about this is to explain my own life. For many, many years I believed Jesus died for my sin and was resurrected. All the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this. I believed it with all my heart. And yet, for many years I was not saved. Why not? I believe the message. I believe the bible was true.
What I didn't believe was this: Jesus is God. I believed Jesus was the connection to God, but not God Himself. I did not believe in Jesus Himself, I only believed in the message of Jesus, the testimony.
However, the day I beleived in Jesus, the day I called upon the real Jesus who lives in Heaven, is the same day I was saved.
There is a real and living Jesus Christ who lives in Heaven and now in me. He is a real person. He is not just a message as we think of messages.
I can sit and write to all about my wife. I can tell you everything I know about her. I can testify and give her message, her life story. I can tell about her character. And if you believe what I say, then that is great. Does that mean you know her? You will never know my wife until you meet her spirit, until you are in her presence. You will never know her until you meet her in person.
This is so important. There are people out there who spend a lifetime studying the bible, and just because they believe the bible, they think they know Jesus. They don't know Jesus. They know about Him. They have heard the testimony of others.
The question is....have you had a real testimony of Christ? Have you met Jesus? Does His Spirit live in you? Have you been born again?
It is sad when a person says, "To read the bible is to fellowship with God." God is a Spirit. The only way to fellowship with God is with His Spirit. His Word cannot be written. Written words are merely symbols. They are not the real thing. They are not the Spirit.
The night I was saved, I came home to read the bible. It was entirely different to me. When I read it, all the words were true. They were true and real, almost as if they were alive. I had read the bible many times, but it was never like this. Why did it change?
Because, the Spirit in me made them true. They became true because God was in me. The words became fruit inside of me.
The words of the bible were never the Words of God. The Spirit is the Word of God. And when the Spirit entered into me, the Word of God was in me. All these things about God that are in the bible written in words, were now true in me.
"let God be true...as it is written"
There is a great danger of turning the testimony of Christ into the Word of God (into Jesus).
If I were to go to a person and say, "Jesus died for your sins. Do you believe this?" And they were to say, "I believe you", I would say, "Don't believe me, believe in Jesus. Do you believe Jesus died for your sins? Don't believe what I am saying is true. Believe in what Jesus did." The appropriate response is to call upon Christ for salvation. The inappropriate response is to say, "I believe in the message. I put my faith in the message." The message of who? Of God? Or of men? The message of men is about Jesus. The message of God is Jesus. We need to place our faith in Christ, the real and living Christ in Heaven. However, if we have placed our faith in the message, we are only fooling ourselves, and one day, when Christ returns, we will know our foolishness.
This is my last appeal. I pray for you both. I pray the Lord may open your hearts and mind. I pray His blessings upon you.
I will not give up preaching this message. The message is the same. Believe in Jesus. Believe the bible, but don't believe in the bible. Put your faith in the true and living Christ and let the testimony of men be the reason why.
| 2006/8/20 19:58||Profile|
Beenblake said"It is sad when a person says, To read the bible is to fellowship with God. God is a Spirit. The only way to fellowship with God is with His Spirit. His Word cannot be written. Written words are merely symbols. They are not the real thing. They are not the Spirit. "
-The funny thing Beenblake, is Jesus went so far as to specifically say " the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." (John 6:63)the logical conclusion to this then is if Jesus's words could be spoken then they could be written, if written, then read, and if read, believed and recieved as if He where here speaking with me right now....as truly He is.
-And if the Bible is quoting Jesus then the words ARE spirit and contradict your theories.
-This brings us to another terrifying flaw if Jesus's statements as recorded in the Bible are not true, if the witness of the Apostles is garbage to you, how do you know you are saved ? Is the Bible just a buffett to you? You pick and choose that which to believe. We come to great problems when we judge the word instead of letting it judge us.
| 2006/8/20 21:24||Profile|