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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Looking for an article

Thanks Phillip, The articles describe the history of neo-orthodoxy. That helps me understand what one is talking about when using the label. I realize that this is not what I’m looking for. The concluding comment in the second link says that too:

Quote:
The normal sense of analysis would bring us to the conclusion that the neo-orthodoxy of Karl Barth and the German intellectuals is a thing for the history books and for discussions among mystics on long, rainy Sunday afternoons.



So, what am I looking for?

We live in a day of significant religious unravelling, of both our traditional religous structures and also our belief structures. This seems to be especially sensed by my middle-aged peers. Many are in a haze, not necessarily understanding what has been happening or why. They just know that things aren’t working and are falling apart. And the church hasn’t produced the goods that it promised us thirty years ago, back in the heydays of evangelicalism – when we thought we were so great.

These friends/relatives/peers and others are the ones whom I feel would be receptive to a broader explanation of the slippery slop that we have been on for the last 50 years.

I’m not sure if there is a particular label for this trend, or even if there is any particular movement that we have bought into. I realize that we could easily explain it by saying that worldliness has crept into the church. But I suspect that for the most part we don’t really see HOW this is so, and how it has changed our way of THINKING and BELIEVING – most significantly in our perception of salvation.

This is serious stuff. It is not a case of “worldly” music defiling our morning church services. (we can always see the others getting worldly) It’s a case of being deluded about our salvation and resting our faith on the WRONG foundation – our SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION of truth (see earlier posts).

So any article on the web that is not too academic, yet brings clarity to this issue and explains its development would be appreciated. Ideally, it should also stir the conscience and allow readers to honestly consider their own assumptions and possible delusions about their salvation.

“Judgment begins in the house of God.” By judgment I mean self-evaluation, discernment... judge, assess, distinguish...

I wish to do my part.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/28 8:38Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
So is the Bible the Word of God or is it only the Word of God when we recognise it to be the Word of God. Was the original text without error and directly inspired by God or is it just the witness of God's people to what they believe they have heard?



Dear Philologos,

You claim to have been born again, do you not? And in the process, you have recieved the Holy Spirit, have you not? Thus, in your daily activity and exercise, you are inspired by God, are you not? Does this make you infalliable? Are you perfect and without error?

The original text of the bible was written by men and women who were not Jesus Christ. They were not perfect and infallible. Explain to me how these men and women could possibly write perfectly what God has told them? Did God dictate these words to them, and then force them to write exactly as He wished?

Indeed, the bible was inpsired by God and the Holy Spirit recalled events during their writing. However, did the Holy Spirit rape them of their will? Or did these men and women submit willing unto their Lord writing as they were directed, but with error as they were with error?

Additionally, is it possible for God's Word to be written? What is God's Word?

In Love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/28 13:30Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Quote-"In the lives of true believers, the bible has no authority and never has had any."

This is the CRAZIEST statement I've ever heard in my entire life.



How so?

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/28 13:32Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/7/28 14:22Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

The original text of the bible was written by men and women who were not Jesus Christ. They were not perfect and infallible. Explain to me how these men and women could possibly write perfectly what God has told them? Did God dictate these words to them, and then force them to write exactly as He wished?



So long as they followed the leading of God in what they said, they were infalliable. You and I are capable of being infalliable in what we say so long as we follow the leading of the Spirit. How is it possible? Through the power of God who is able to keep one from stumbling.


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Jimmy H

 2006/7/28 17:10Profile









 Re: oh Lord Jesus

Lord, this is the kind of thread that I plead with you to protect me from your followers. on one hand, you have philologos who can is so full of theological knowledge to the 10th to the 10th power to the 10th power, that by the time I get finished reading what he wrote, I have no idea of what he means, and yet I understand what he means when he trashes a faithful servant like Bonhoeffer who's work "Life Together" I understood in the most deep recesses of my heart and soul and set my heart aflame for Messiah, a man who ministered to those who would enventually hang him....and on the other hand you have a man like beenblake who withers God's precious Word down to just mere divinely inspired man centered 'words' or events.

Oh God, i realize both men are like I, just seekers looking thru a glass darkly, but dear men philologos with your vast library and journals, mind full of knowledge and beenblake with your doubts, there are three main verses I'm going to give to you with the assistance of the Holy Ghost, that I rest my soul on, and I pray that in the process I can smash the barth, and the neo-othrodoxies and the rest of the "stuff" and God will be revealed in these three passages. (forgive me if I seem smarmy, or snarky...not so, just weary)

"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness"

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn fron me for I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden light".

"God is love, he who lives in love lives in God and God in him".


I didnt Scripture and verse just quoted from my heart, because that is what I rest my soul on.


Now you both can go back to your theological discussion.

Lord, if I was untoward to these men forgive me, Lord I beg you, save me from religion, and let me hide underneath Your wing.....amen

and bless philologos and beenblake, I pray they understoood what I meant.

bartle.

 2006/7/28 18:45
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

So Hi Diane,

Your question:

"So, what am I looking for?"

What a great question. What are we all looking for? The first thing that I had to come to was to rightly divide the word of God. Yes, I know that the word dispensation throws up flags and bells and whistles for the whole of Church.

There are certain ways God deals with His creation just like there are different ways a mother and father deal with their children. The beginning of life is certainly different from the end of life, you don't deal with a 2 year old the same way you deal with a teenager. On top of that you don't deal with a criminal the same way you deal with a law abiding citizen.

If you look at a baby in innocents but he/she still want their own way, when he/she is hungry he or she wants attention now or the parents hear about it, Dirty diaper, gas, any little thing he/she wants, the parents hear about it even 3AM in the morning, he/she doesn't care.

Ultra dispensationalism is just as bad as no dispensationalism, so we must come to the truth where the Holy Spirit will lead is and show us who we are in Christ.

So how would God deal with His infantile creation when the first thing he/she did was listen to a liar and deceiver and trust him more that the God who created them. Pretty dumb, right?

If you look at the different ways God has dealt with his creation you see the same way parents deal with children. These are dispensations in the life of the children. God has used many dispensations in dealing with His creation. The first one was innocence, that is the garden, we failed. The second major way God dealt with man was conscience, That is let mans own conscience rule his life, well we know that does not work because of sin and death in man. In fact, it is the knowledge of evil or sin that condemns every man as a sinner, and every person born of Adam inherits the capacity for this knowledge. So conscience doesn't work either. Then we can go to other dispensation or ways God has dealt with mankind and we see that none of them worked. We know about the dispensation of Law and the dispensation of Grace. So what does all this mean? From the very foundation of the world Christ was in the picture even in the garden, that is the tree of Life. We see shadows and picture of Christ in the Old Testament, We see in the New Testament the reality of Christ. God knew from the beginning that man could not be a son of God on his own. He would have to work out a plan that would put Christ in a person so he would be able to come to the knowledge of who God is and what God wants His children to be. That is Gods only reason for the creation of man, He wanted children in His House.

Christ in you is the only answer, and the dispensations is the only way to separate the scripture to see where we have come from and where we are going. If you want to understand these different ways God has dealt and is dealing with man, I have come across a man that God has given the Grace to make it more clear what covenant, dispensation, promises etc. are and how they apply to our life with and in Christ as we live now. He is a much better writer than I, but I agree with his expertise concurrently and completely. There is much more beyond what is written but it is a good foundation.

I have his permission to use any and all of his writing to bring truth to the body of Christ the Church. His URL.

http://www.preservedwords.com/dispen1a.htm

Any questions please let me know and maybe we can come up with the answers, by the direction and teaching of the Holy Spirit together.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/28 21:44Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

beenblakes's

Quote:
Additionally, is it possible for God's Word to be written? What is God's Word?

It may be a couple of weeks before I can get back to this discussion as I shall be away from home but if you would like to "listen" to my answer to this question you will find it in a little series of studies I did about 10 years ago called [url=http://wiki.biblebase.com/index.php/The_Bible:_Inspiration_and_Interpretation]The Word of God.[/url]


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/29 1:00Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: dispensations?

Quote:
Christ in you is the only answer, and the dispensations is the only way to separate the scripture to see where we have come from and where we are going.


Phillip, I’m having difficulty seeing the connection, that is, how these dispensations shed light on what has occurred in the last 50 years.

I fear that comments like this one taken from the article is actually counterproductive, as it may perpetuate the illusion about one's salvation:

Quote:
Whether the believer obeys or disobeys these duties has nothing to do with his salvation, but disobedience will cost him rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat ... .



I suspect that this statement encouarges one to discount the very symptoms that make good warning lights; ie, their sin. "the man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar..." 1 Jn 2:3

I wonder if dispensationalism if a factor in the slipery slide into subjective evangelicalism. (how's that for a label?) When did dispensationalism rise into popularity?


“See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us – even eternal life” I John 2:24

"Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, it means you have failed the test." 2 Corinthians 13:5 (NLT)

“… be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome in the eternal kingdom of our Lord.” 2 Pet. 1:10



Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/29 8:56Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear bartle and everyone else,

If indeed the bible is the Word of God, then would not the author's recognize the bible as the Word of God?

Let us consider the book of Luke.

Luke 1:1-4(NASB)
1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

Let us review this scripture and see what we find.

Firstly, let us take note that the apostle Luke was writing a letter to a friend. At no point does Luke acknowledge or particularly state God's commissioning of this letter or any divine intervention on this behalf. This is not to say that Luke was not inspired by God, but it is to say that God did not directly command this. Luke does not state any leading of the Holy Spirit. Instead, Luke says it seemed "fitting" to write the letter. The writing of the letter was by Luke's choice. He was concern for his friend and wished to share the gospel with him. This letter was written in the words of Luke.

Secondly, Luke begins by speaking about other scripture and his impression of scripture. He speaks of others who have written "accounts", the Greek word used here being "Diegesis" which translates "narrative". I point this out as some seem to be offended that the bible should be called a book of stories, and yet, this is exactly how Luke referred to scripture. It is quite obvious Luke is speaking of scripture, as he says, "handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word." We are not speaking of texts that were mere recordings of Jewish life and times. Luke was speaking of texts that were recorded by men and women who were "eyewitnesses and servants of the word."

This brings me to my last observation. Luke does not say the word was recorded or even refer to scripture as the word. Rather, Luke says scripture is a recording of "eyewitnesses and servants of the word." Very specifically, Luke uses the Greek word Logos here. This same word is the one John used to speak of Christ in the first book of John.

This idea that the Word of God came to a person, and this person then wrote an account or "testimony" of what they heard and saw is carried throughout the bible. In John 10:35, Jesus is quoted as saying, "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot * be broken;" If you notice, Jesus says, "unto whom the word of God came" suggesting that the word of God came unto a person who then wrote down what they saw or heard. He calls this recording or document "scripture." Christ does not parallel Word of God" and "scripture." He does parallel the experience of God's Word coming to someone.

In the NASB, the phrase "word of the LORD came" is written 99 times, and in KJ, it is written 93 times. I do not think it was written this way by mistake. The Word of the Lord came to someone, much like a person visits another. The Word is being personified. In addition, what is being established is the experience. The person experienced the Word of the Lord. It came unto them. The person then recorded what they heard and saw. The recording is a testimony.

This must be understood in it's fullest. When the Lord speaks, it is with immense power and wisdom. The Word of the Lord is not mere words. The Word of the Lord is full of living power as it says in the book of Hebrews.

The Word of the Lord is an event. When the Lord speaks it is sure, above and beyond anything, and it bears all authority over everything. Who could possibly defy the Word of God?

The bible is not the Word of God. It is merely a recording. It is a copy. This is significant. The Word of the Lord happened in an event that was then recorded into what we know as scripture. When holding the bible, we don't have the actual Word of God. We have a recording or copy. The bible is not the Word of God Himself, it is a copy or recording of the Word of God. In other words, it is a testimony of the Word.

This is further made evident by what is recording in Exodus concerning the ten commandments. The ten commandments were written by the very finger of God. In all of history, this is the only known document where God Himself actually wrote the very words. Even still, these stone tablets are referred to as a testimony. In Exodus 25:16 (NASB) it says, "You shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you."

Scripture is a testimony of the Word of God. It is not the Word of God. Rather, Christ is the Word of God. Scripture testifies about Christ.

I could write many more scripture and examples that support this. In addition, there are a several more issues I could address, for instance that the testimony is alive in each believer or its significance in the age to come. However, doing so would lead to an entire book of what the Lord has shown me. Instead, I would like to end this post about a devastating problem that has arose in the Church.

The bible is a testimony of the Word. However, over the past century, the Church has declared the bible to be the "Word of God." The Church has given the bible all authority as such. This has been done so that the Church could have an instrument and tool in order to push or maintain authority, much like the Pharisees did with the Law at the time of Christ.

In addition, this has also lead to a most grievous sin. As established in John 1:1, the Word of God is God. By saying the bible is the "Word of God", they have elevated the bible to the same level as God. In turn, what has happened is that bible worship has become prevalent in the Church. Instead of turning to Christ in prayer upon all matters, and placing all their trust in Him, people are placing all their trust in the bible. When a person needs an answer to a question, rather than pray and ask the Lord, they seek the counsel of the bible. Rather than tell unbelievers they need to seek Christ, and turn to Christ, they are told to turn to the bible. They are told the bible is the basis for all things. In fact, it has come to such a point that people are told reading the bible is the same as spending time with God. The bible has been established as the complete authority on the believer’s life, which is far from the truth. The true Word of God, Jesus Christ, is being replaced with the bible, the testimony of Christ. A proper view of the bible has been lost. Just as the Roman Catholic Church once replaced Christ, which lead to the reformation, so has the bible slowly replaced Christ.

John 5:39 (NASB)
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;”

I pray that the Church may be revived of this blindness, and may once again see the truth. I pray she may place all her trust in her true Lord, Jesus Christ, and that she will abandon all earthly notions for her heavenly home united with Him. I pray she will not try to obey the commandments, but that she will live controlled by the Spirit in her, producing all that is pleasing to Him in His sight. I pray she will only worship the Holy One, her Savior and Lord.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/29 12:05Profile





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