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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

for me its like this... i close my eyes ... i see jesus on the throne in all of his glory...around my milions of people angels all about to sing praises to him..... what kind of song would fit there? i dont belive that some hard rock christian song would be the one.... or a gangsta rap christian song... they can be good for witnessing and spread the gospel to people who would never heard it before...but i hope you understand my point... becuse all of our songs...arent they supose to be to him? not for our emotional experience?

gods peace to you


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/7/24 23:15Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

It's amazing in all these debates on music and such you will see all sorts of "God told me" type arguments (e.g. David Wilkerson), yet, you won't find one ounce of the word of God that actually condemns things like Christian rock.

People need to heavily read through Romans 14 really bad and get some real biblical discernment:

Rom 14:20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense

Some of you are foolishy tearing down the work of God "for the sake of food." In this instance our "food" is music. Paul says indeed, all things are clean? And why? Because all things are created by God, and God declared all things that he created to be good. Musical style varies from culture to culture, from generation to generation. Musical style in and of itself is nothing more than mere sound!!! And sound was created by God!

The only differences in styles of music are the instruments used to create the wide variety of sounds and the speed and durations for which they are played. And often the only differences between styles such as the holy "southern gospel" and "christian rock" is simply a difference of speed. Both styles use almost identical instruments!

Of course, one can pervert music and use it either for righteousness or unrighteousness. But styles in and of themsleves, biblically speaking, are all the same. All are good.

I have been to several southern gospel christian concerts, and have been to a few contemporary, and even a christian rock concerts. Frankly, I have seen more "wordliness" at the southern gospel christian concerts (especially those put on by Bill Gaither and gang!) than I have at Christian rock. Frankly, there are some pretty powerful Christian rock songs, and I will say I have been greatly blessed by the likes of Third Day and Casting Crowns.

Let us open our eyes and love one another! Ultimately what matters is are all things being done unto edification and the building up of one in the faith.


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Jimmy H

 2006/7/24 23:30Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Also, there is a Kirk Franklin CD that my fiance owns that I have borrowed and personally been blessed by it. I'm not really a big fan of rap to begin with. However, I have found several of his Christian rap songs extremely edifying, and extremely worshipful.

Also, Israel & New Breed's live CD is a bit "international" in its musical scope, taking music from all over the world and incorporating it into their unique musical style. They have some pretty powerful stuff. I've cried out to God from the depths of my soul as I ministered unto the Lord with their music. Good stuff.


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Jimmy H

 2006/7/24 23:37Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:

have you been to many youth services playing christain rock music? many christian rock music seem to be leading many profess christian to worldliness, far from the cross. when you see stuff like that in church how can you not be grieved at such things. much of christian music plays a big part in many youths lives and causing them to stray from the narrow path and leading them to the wide road of destruction. its because of todays leaders that allow such harlotry in the church! it doesn't take a super spiritual person to see that much of christian music is all about ME, full of vanity.



This is probably the wrong forum to play 'the devil's advocate'... but please hear me out. I have been using Keith Green as an example for a clear purpose... by the standards of 2006, 30 years after he made his first record Keith Green is considered pretty tame. But if we look at what people were saying about him at the time he was regarded as a heretic, leading youth like a pied piper into the fiery pits of hell. This is just not the case, but it was a case of perception by the church establishment at the time.

Mercy Me, Third Day etc... How are they different... well a lot of ways, they are not as overtly critical of the church establishment. The only recent group I can remember that really had a stormy time with the church was DC Talk, but that fizzled out. Mostly they're preaching a one sided gospel, they're preaching Dietrich Boenhoffer's Cheap Grace, easy-believism... but get this, SO IS THE REST OF THE CHURCH. CCM is just a mirror of the church in general, we have watered down the gospel to fill up the pews! We've taken sanctification and sacrifice and traded it for the world!

Don't blame CCM for the problems in the church youth group, blame the parents and church leaders! If someone is properly taught the gospel, not just cheap grace then no amount of Christian Rock is going to change his mind! The problem with today's youth is today's churches! When Christian youth see that their parents are just as materialistic, just as driven by popular culture and worldly appetites, when their parents are more likely to pick up the sports page first thing in the morning than the word of God... The hypocrisy in the home is the root of the problems with youth.

I was blessed that I was not raised in a Christian home; my parents are firmly entrenched in the self seeking American dream camp. But you know, that doesn't faze me! Working with the youth at my church is far more discouraging, here are kids who have been fed the truths of the bibles all their lives, but they haven't seen them lived out at home! That’s a tragedy!

You say that its today's church leaders that are allowing this kind of music to be played in church that is leading people to the wide road... you've missed the forest for the trees! The root of the problem isn't a few musicians, although they are a product of it, the root of the problem is decades of Cheap Grace being preached in American churches... without any room for Sanctification!

All you need to do is pick up some Ravenhill, KP Yohannan or even Charles Finney to know this is the problem. I've been reading Charles Finney's fine work compiled in a book called 'The Promise of the Spirit' which I purchased for under three dollars... he talks about how the Christians brought to Christ in his generation struggled with the same thing... all the teaching was focused on Justification and none on Sanctification!

Paraphrasing Leonard Ravenhill, Justification is Jesus on the Cross; Sanctification is the Christian on the Cross! The church in America is happy to leave Christ hanging there and sing and enjoy the easy life... this generation has yet to see Christians en mass getting onto the cross... that is the fundamental problem, CCM is a symptom of the problem. Fighting the symptoms of a sickness is only a temporary answer!


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Ian Smith

 2006/7/25 0:20Profile









 Re:

What is wrong with singing about Jesus to rock? It sounds like most of today's modern musical genres are upsetting to most people that have commented here. But do you really expect kids and teenagers of our day come into church or listen to Christian music that involves just a choir and an organ? I don't think so.

If you chat to or hear the guys that are in Christian bands of, say, rock or metal, they are just normal guys that like heavy music. They want to sing about Jesus, they want to sing about God and they want to reach people that like what they like.

One of my favourite bands, Norma Jean, are a hardcore Christian band. And they do scream, oh yes they do. But they are not angry, they are passionate. They are not murderous, they are godly men. I have heard some stuff that Christian rockers have said to be better than what most preachers preach in our watered-down pulpits today!

Says Tim McTague of Underoath:

"I believe that we, as 'Christians', have lost sight of what Christ intended our lives to be and the purpose and faith he gave his life to teach us. As long as we give our 39 cents a day and make it to church on Wednesday and Sunday, we're all good.the American way.the new 'Christianity'. Whatever happened to the church of Acts where people would sell all they had and give to the poor and join a body of thousands of people, living a life of prayer, community and servanthood? We now sit, 2,000 years later, in our comfortable homes and Lexuses and mega-church youth groups watching the rest of the world rot away and starve to death. Where is Christ in our watered down, self-serving hybrid of faith and hypocrisy.the new 'Christianity'? God exists to pay our mortgages and heal our families, but, when it comes time to sacrifice something of our own, we look away. We're too concerned with church attendance and having the biggest building in town to see that we're wasting our days and God's money for our own comfort and well-being. The answer to our world's issues isn't charity drives and new taxes and Republican parties.but, rather, a complete renewal of thinking. Loving people as you would want to be loved, clothing the cold, feeding the hungry and housing the homeless - not at God's expense but our own - giving all we have in order to shine the light of Christ and live a life that counts.

"Somewhere along the way, we decided that being a Christian wasn't a life of serving but a life of being served. I can't change anything with 400 words.but you can change the world. God is real and is waiting for a few real Christians to step up and let him work through them the way he worked through the disciples. But it will cost everything."

Now I am not saying that hardcore music should be sung in all of our churches in order to reach this generation, but this thread seems to be leaning towards saying that most of todays Christian bands are twisting the gospel. Who are we to say which genre is godly and which isn't? Who are we to judge who has the right motives and who has the wrong ones? Who are we to judge other peoples' spirituality?

I don't like the term 'CCmers' that this thread has been using. It is too much of a generalisation. How can you place all 1000s of today's Christian bands into one group and judge them for being ungodly? Who are we to judge? God judges people because He is perfect; He is entitled to judge! But I refuse to believe that nay of us are perfect. I speak to myself aswell as everyone else, because I realise that sometimes I am swift to judge and it is something I am working on cutting out of my life.

I know many people that have been drawn to bow the knee at the foot of the cross because of 'CCMers.' And yes, there will be rogue bands that do fit what you are saying, but to tell-off, as it were, all of them and class them all as CCmers I think is wrong.

'Contemporary Christian Music' does not mean: wordly sinners drawing men and women to hell. It does not mean: we are going to bring worldliness into the church. CCM is a generalisation of a few bands that do these things. Most of them simply want to serve God and bring people to Christ.

 2006/7/25 6:33
WorldView
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Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

I've enjoyed reading many of the replies.

Good posts.


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Keith

 2006/7/25 7:20Profile
Tears_of_joy
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Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Hi dear richard,

You said:

Quote:
It sounds like most of today's modern musical genres are upsetting to most people that have commented here.



One of the problems is that modern musical genres, and especially those who are entering the church, just upsetting us. If these things don't grieve us to tears and driven us to our knees, we will continue to reap the fruits that we are witnesses of. It is so sad...
I'm so far from america all that musical 'christian' industry and I cannot imagine how it is if you are in the middle of it. We should cry with brokeness over the lost youth [u]in[/u] the churches who want to be entertained.
Many of the things are well explained in the featured sermon by Paul Washer.

I hope that we will remove from our hearts every ugly thing and every unbeautiful thing and every dead thing and every unholy thing that might prevent us from worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ in the beauty of holiness. Now I am quite sure that this kind of thing is not popular. The world does not want to hear it and the half-saved churches of the evangelical fold do not want to hear it. They want to be entertained while they are edified. Entertain me and edify me without pain.
-A.W.Tozer

The tragic results of this spirit are all about us: shallow loves, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externalities, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personality for the power of the Spirit. These and such as these are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul.
-A.W.Tozer

IN OUR DAY WE MUST BE DRAMATIC ABOUT EVERYTHING. We don’t want God to work unless He can make a theatrical production of it. We want Him to come dressed in costumes with a beard and with a staff. We want Him to play a part according to our ideas. Some of us even demand that He provide a colorful setting and fireworks as well!
-A.W.Tozer

The old writers talked about the dark night of the soul. A time of emptying. A time when it became dark all around us. But we’re too carnal to allow our hearts to get dark longing for God now. We’re so determined we want to be happy that if we can’t be happy by the Holy Ghost we’ll drum up our happiness. Religious “Rock and Rollers”! We’re going to get happy somehow if we’ve got to beat it up with a tom-tom. You can have that kind of happiness if you want it, but if you don’t want it and are dissatisfied with it and you want the joy that comes out of Joseph’s new tomb open now forever, if you want the joy that comes from the Holy Ghost, a well of water springing up within you forever, then you will likely have a loneliness and an inner darkness and a despair with self and you’ll wonder what happened to you and you’ll say, “Am I backslidding?” No, you’re not backsliding. You are going on with God.
-A.W.Tozer

 2006/7/25 8:12Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

iansmith said:

Quote:
CCM is just a mirror of the church in general, we have watered down the gospel to fill up the pews! We've taken sanctification and sacrifice and traded it for the world!

Don't blame CCM for the problems in the church youth group, blame the parents and church leaders! If someone is properly taught the gospel, not just cheap grace then no amount of Christian Rock is going to change his mind! The problem with today's youth is today's churches! When Christian youth see that their parents are just as materialistic, just as driven by popular culture and worldly appetites, when their parents are more likely to pick up the sports page first thing in the morning than the word of God... The hypocrisy in the home is the root of the problems with youth.



oh, brother, I'm totally agree with you!

Quote:
You say that its today's church leaders that are allowing this kind of music to be played in church that is leading people to the wide road... you've missed the forest for the trees! The root of the problem isn't a few musicians, although they are a product of it, the root of the problem is decades of Cheap Grace being preached in American churches... without any room for Sanctification!



Yes!

Anyone who needs to be chucked under the chin all the time to keep him happy and satisfied is in bad shape spiritually. He can ignore the fact that the Bible urges us to go on unto perfection for he is of that part of the church that cannot be satisfied without a visit from the latest gospel peddler, who promises cowbells, a musical handsaw and a lot of other novelties!
-A.W.Tozer

We have the breezy, self-confident Christians with little affinity for Christ and His cross. [b]We have the joy-bell boys that can bounce out there and look as much like a game show host as possible. Yet, they are doing it for Jesus’ sake?! The hypocrites! They’re not doing it for Jesus’ sake at all; they are doing it in their own carnal flesh and are using the church as a theater because they haven’t yet reached the place where the legitimate theater would take them. [/b]
-A.W.Tozer

 2006/7/25 8:19Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
One of my favourite bands, Norma Jean, are a hardcore Christian band. And they do scream, oh yes they do. But they are not angry, they are passionate. They are not murderous, they are godly men.



dear richard, I just read the [b]biography[/b] of this band.

[b]Axl Rose once sang, "Nice boys don't play rock 'n' roll." Apparently, he's never met Norma Jean.[/b] While the band's peers have been busy buying their way onto Ozzfest (and Axl was working on that Chinese Democracy thing), these Atlanta, Georgia, natives have spent the last five years on the road, relentlessly playing basements and ballrooms, expanding their uniquely organic fan base with each show they play. With their second proper full-length, O' God, The Aftermath, all that work is about to come to a head-but in case you're just tuning in, here's the CliffsNotes version of the Norma Jean story.

Recorded by Matt Bayles (Isis, Botch,Mastodon) at Stone Gossard's Studio Litho, O' God, The Aftermath doesn't just push the band's personal limitations (which it does); it also pushes the limits of heavy music, period. "A lot of bands say 'we've progressed..." But the thing about these guys is they really did progress as musicians and artists, "a direct result of over two and a half years of touring while having only released one record" explains the most recent addition to the group, singer Cory Brandan who, along with guitarists Scottie Henry and Chris Day, bassist Jake Schultz and drummer Daniel Davison, make up the current incarnation of Norma Jean. "[With O' God], we wanted to do something that was musically challenging and artistically balanced", he adds. "Anyone who's expecting [2002's] Bless The Martyr And Kiss The Child is probably not going to get very much of that."

Although the aforementioned Martyr has scanned over 58,000 copies, this is actually a good thing. From the math-metal madness of "Muderotica" to the mesmerizing melodicism (wait, is that singing?) of "Bayonetwork" to the alternately ambient and aggressive ten-minute opus "Disconnetcktie," O' God, [b]The Aftermath spans the chaotic cannon of heavy music from Pantera to Poison The Well to Pelican and is as cerebral and obscure comparative to musical giants Tool.[/b] But, more importantly, it has as many stylistic shifts as it does time changes, refusing to fall back on hardcore's clichéd song
structures and stabbed in-the-back lyrical motifs.

And the band's heady ambition doesn't apply solely toward the music. O God's thematic lyrics, song titles and artful aesthetics are all open to interpretation-even the album's seemingly bleak title isn't necessarily what it appears to be. "A lot of people think the word 'aftermath' has a negative connotation, but I look at it as more of a positive thing; a pleasant aftermath, you could say," explains band drummer Davison. "It's looking at it from a spiritual standpoint; the aftermath of grace or salvation."

[b]Oh, and then there are the live shows. Combining motion pictures, smoke machines and an epilepsy-inducing light show, the band insist their current world tour with Atreyu and Unearth is their most over-the top yet. "We're artists and we want to pursue our vision of art, but we're also entertainers and we want people to come to our shows and have fun," explains Brandan. It's worked; countless bands who've sold more records can't pack the kids in night after night the way Norma Jean do.[/b]

But getting back to that Axl Rose quote, while Norma Jean obviously take their music seriously, these nice boys refuse to take themselves too seriously, be it via lighting off fireworks in their van, starting small fires or, most recently, getting the word 'BBQ' tattooed on their lips with arrows pointing toward their mouths. "I've been in other bands and you always say stuff [like], "Yeah, let's do this! That'll be funny," Brandan explains. The thing about Norma Jean is that they'll actually go do it.

[b]Welcome to the jungle, baby.[/b]


Lord help us!

Religious entertainment has so corrupted the Church of Christ that millions don’t know that it’s a heresy. Millions of evangelicals throughout the world have devoted themselves to religious entertainment. They don’t know that it’s as much heresy as the counting of beads or the splashing of holy water or something else. To expose this, of course, raises a storm of angry protest among the people.
-A.W.Tozer

Because we are not truly worshipers, we spend a lot of time in the churches just spinning our wheels, burning the gasoline, making a noise but not getting anywhere.
-A.W.Tozer

One man wrote an article as an exposé of me. He said that I claimed that religious entertainment was wrong and he said, ”Don’t you know that every time you sing a hymn, it’s entertainment?”
Every time you sing a hymn? I don’t know how that fellow ever finds his way home at night. He ought to have a seeing eye dog and a man with a white cane to take him home!
-A.W.Tozer

When you raise your eyes to God and sing, ”Break thou the bread of life, dear Lord, to me,” is that entertainment—or is it worship? Isn’t there a difference between worship and entertainment? The church that can’t worship must be entertained. And men who can’t lead a church to worship must provide the entertainment. That is why we have the great evangelical heresy here today—the heresy of religious entertainment.
-A.W.Tozer

 2006/7/25 8:34Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

well here will always be many people on both sides here...they who says its ok..they who dont think its ok... i belive there is no such thing as christian hard rock.... if there is it wont be long soon we will have christian beers... and soon some other crasy thing.
just becuse you stamp "jesus" on something dont make it holy. If you listening to this kind music makes you separate you more and more from the world and making you more and more holy and christlike, then thats good... but i know many of the enemies of christ such as for example this "manson" guy that plays this devilich music.... there are christan songs that sound the same just that they name the name jesus... its of the DEVIL!!!! and if you were to listen whit an open heart to the sermons by keith daniel earlier in this thread then you might be able to give up this for christ sake.

if heven plays that kind of music.... i dont think so i cant se paul and the apostles sitting there and enjoying christian hardcore rock screaming and shouting... do i belive only old hymns to be ok? no probably many many sorts of music that i dont personaly like is ok... but were do we as christians draw the line...can a unsaved person see a difference in our walk whit god in what music we listen to? there should be a difference if you compare what a follower of christ listen to..and a unsaved person listen to...

if it sounds like the world
if it looks like the world
if it talks like the world
if it walks like the world

it probably is of the world


gods peace to you
christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/7/25 9:17Profile





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