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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida


CCMer = Writer/performer of Contemporary Christian Music

IMHO-Its not the rhyme nor the meter of the music ... its the content of the Word.

Bibles are printed in thousands of different languages and translations..some are revered, some are reviled. All are 'translations' of the Word of God. It all comes down to your relationship with Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's to empower your discernment as to the methodology of your strenghtening your wisdom of the Will of God.

If its scripturally correct, I will listen to all any kind of Christian music. I sing hymns, Praise and Worship and Southern Gospel.

It matters not if I speak English or Swahili or Afrikanns, or listen to Rock, Rap or SKA, if the music that I listen to feeds my spirit and that emboldens and empowers me to speak of Christ to those who do not know it then I MAKE IT my personal hymn of Praise to the one who created us.

There IS some bad music out there ... just as there are some bad churches and leaders. Our relationship with Christ will give us the discernment to judge the content and to use it to nourish my spirit and to give Praise and Glory to God.

bill schnippert

 2006/7/24 12:25Profile

Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


Hi WorldView,

Have you heard one of these life changing messages by [url=]Keith Daniel[/url]:

[url=]The Power of Prayer (video)[/url]
[url=]Finished with the world[/url]

There are very good testemonies about the music.

God bless you brother.

 2006/7/24 12:29Profile

Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


some of you say you will listen to any kind of christian music if its according to truth, but do you realize that most christian bands are using the money their making off of their music to live worldly. they say their music is from God and that their using their God given talents to bring others to Christ. if they say that this is from God, then they shouldn't charge or spend the money they get filling their flesh, but use most of it to sow back into the kingdom.

this is similiar to someone calling themself a prophet and charging people for prophecies. wouldn't you be upset about that? then why support many bands who do that? did david charge saul?

it is so obviouse that most christian bands are so full of themselves, love the praise of men, love popularity, love to be seen. taking the focus off of God with their stylish clothes, glamor concerts, christian videos, t-shirts, calendars, dove awards, posters of themself. those people at the dove awards received their rewards already! totally using the name of God to give themselves fame! and a lot of chritians are feeding christian performer's flesh by supporting their music!

heavy metal, punk, ska just seem like a no brainer. come on, all that screaming, wearing heavy metal and punk clothes is drawing too much attention to themselves. where's the meekness in that?

someone can sing songs according to the word, but if their lifestyle don't match i wouldn't touch their stuff. your helping to support their ego. supporting something that God is disgusted with. glory belongs only to God!

the devil knows God's word too! oh, how he uses it so deceitful!

where's the jelousy for God's name?! christian worship music have gotten way out of hand. most christian music is godless and full of vanity. why do christian bands want to hold a concert just like the world? charging people for their music? wanting to be on stage? dress like the rock world? making christian videos? because its all about ME!

Oh, God help us! for many christians call what is holy, evil and evil, holy.


 2006/7/24 17:17Profile

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas



Please allow me to share some pages out of David Wilkerson's book "Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth." In it, he addresses the topic of contemporary music in the house of God:

"Borrowed music is Satan's calculated attempt to pollute the worship of Almighty God. Satan will go to any extreme to pollute the worship directed to the Lord so that it will be rejected. He simply adds another spirit and mixes in a lie, knowing God will reject it. God must, and always does, reject all worship that is not born of the Holy Spirit and that is not all of truth. And even if the music inspires the performers and listeners, it does not get beyond the ceiling - because God won't touch it. He abhors it."

"It amazes me that such a great multitude of young men and women - including young ministers - are so infatuated with rock music. They've been raised on it. In every other area of their life, the Lord is in full control. They are dedicated, pure in every other way - but they cling to this one idol. Just one thing stands between them and God's very best. They'll give up TV, sports, illicit sex, overeating, and all other kinds of idols - but don't dare trod on their music! I cringe when I hear parents and ministers say, "Don't judge." They say that each generation has its own style of music. And they do sing about Jesus, so it must be all right. What incredible spiritual blindness! We have come to the place that anything is acceptable, as long as it "gets results." If the music of devils gets kids up front to make a decision, it is acceptable. Most of these youth have not been touched beyond their emotions. The Holy Spirit has not probed deeply to deal with sin."

"One of the reasons God's Spirit was lifted from the Jesus Movement was their refusal to forsake their old music. They gave up pot, herion, alcohol, promiscious sex - but they refused to give up their beloved rock. Amazing! I say its hold is stronger than drugs, alcohol, or tobacco. It is the biggest mass addiction in the world's history. My only concern is, what does God think about rock? If we can discover his mind on this matter, then all Christ-loving youth must accept it; and if they won't, it will prove they are stubborn, deceived by lying spirits, and not willing to submit to the Holy Spirit's authority."

"The Holy Spirit revealed to me four truths that I believe fully manifest his attitude about rock music and all other kids of worldly music in His house:

1. Out of which womb was the music born?

Was rock music born in the womb of a Spirit-filled musician? Whatever is wicked and evil is divorced from God upon its inception (Psalm 58:3). Rock music was born in the womb of darkness and rebellion. There is a new generation today that has no contact with the roots of rock; it was before their time. Had they seen how it was born, with all the drugs, dropping out, rebellion, and devil worship - they may have had a better understanding of what I mean by its "womb." When it was first born and broke on the scene years ago, every Spirit-filled lover of Christ discerned it was a transgression. When Elvis Presley made his debut, I fell on my face before God and wept. How can anyone who adores Jesus Christ take an evil child, born of evil seed, of an evil womb, and make it a servant to Him? What kind of fruit does Rock and Roll produce? Godliness and purity? A hunger and thirst for Christ? A broken and a contrite heart? Conviction for sin? Be honest! According to God's Word, all seeds bear after their own kind (Gen. 1:12). When the Beatles, the original rockers, mocked Jesus Christ and glorified drugs in their music, what kind of fruit was that? When 400,000 youth gathered at Woodstock, staying high for three whole days on rock and pot, and going forth to a decade of violence, what kind of fruit was that? From its inception, Rock has produced nothing but evil fruit. Rock has dry breasts and can give health and life to no one.

2. God will not accept a blemished sacrifice.

What does this have to do with worldly music in the church? I hear sincere Christians say, "Satan doesn't own music! Music belongs to God. The music doesn't matter as long as the words are right." Dead wrong! The devil owns all muic that is ungodly and evil. And Satan had all the right words when he tempted Christ. The Israelites dancing around the golden calf had all the right words too - were they not singing, "This is the god that brought us out of Egypt"? Same people, same music, same words - but their god had changed. Rock music was born with more than a particular sound; it was conceived by a spirit, and it continues to be activated by that same spirit that gave birth to it. I do not know of a single true worshipper of the Lord Jesus Christ who desires to offer worldly music as an offering to a holy God. I've noticed that musicians at Christian concerts seldom perform rock just before the message and invitation. It is not conducive to conviction of any kind because it is of another spirit. If it is of God, why not use it before the invitation? Why not a ripping rock segment just before the sermonette? No, the worldy music is reserved for the ENTERTAINMENT part of the concerts, to the accompanying of fleshy whistles, shouting, and grooving. It doesn't inspire them to kneel and pray, or to even bow their heads in worship. There is notone ounce of conviction in it - God refuses to touch it. I don't care who borrows music from the devil's womb - including the ancient church fathers - God will not accept a sacrifice that was taken from the devil's altars and placed on Christ's sacred altar. There is a vast difference between borrowing a tune and borrowing a style of music. Rock is more than music - it is a lifestyle. Why should we give the Lord the devil's hand-me-downs? Why not original, pure music for the King of Kings?

3. God has prescribed boundaries for worship.

This generation is bored of "speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19). Hymns? Spiritual songs? Sweet melodies? Not if a new breed of musicians have their way. They actually laugh at Paul's description of good, Christ-exalting music described here in Ephesians. God says to this generation: "You have rejected the holy hymns, the sweet melodies, the sanctified sounds of joy and pure gladness. You detested the music of your fathers who worshipped in purity. It was your disdaining pride of all that was old. You want the miracles of the book of Acts, but not the purity of the fathers. You recoiled from the music born of the spirit and embraced the music of the world."

4. God is looking for overcomers who will search out the old paths and find the right way.

But they said, "We will not walk therein" (Jer. 6:16). Not that the old songs and hymns should be used exclusively - but they should not be cast aside and replaced with anything light and shallow. I am weary of rock advocates telling me that worldy music gets results. This has been a Roman Catholic argument for centuries, as they justify their missionaries who mix pagan worship and traditions with their gospel. It does not produce heart changes! You can't feed poison to babies without disaster. Pure and impure water can not flow out of the same fountain, and holy and unholy music can not pour out of a clean heart. A person may only listen to majestic hymns and melodious psalms, but if the heart and ears are not pure before God, he or she may as well be listening to the wildest punk rock in the land. I have also observed that performers and groups that feature worldly music have no ringing testimony of holiness and separation from the world. Many still drink, especially wine and beer. Some are sexually promiscious. The more worldly the music, the harder the rock, the more compromised they are. I can listen to their music and tell in the spirit immediately what their secret lives are like. What kind of music will we be singing as we go out to meet Him? Will it be a shout of victory and holiness and joy - or will it be an echo from some heathen beer tavern? I am singing songs right now that I will be singing then - to a music that wil not be strange over there. It is a simple song of adoration and worship to my holy and precious Savior."

- Taken from David Wilkerson's "Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth."

I agree 100%

Paul Frederick West

 2006/7/24 18:13Profile

Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL


I've just been considering what Leonard Ravenhill would say about this topic.
Leonard Ravenhill took both David Wilkerson (the author of the content of the last post) and Keith Green (a zealous CCM artist) under his wing as their spiritual shepherd...
He recounted in an interview [which is widely available on this site] just how different they were to him... but he didn't hint that either's ministry was any better than the other's.
How could someone like Leonard Ravenhill support Keith Green (a CCM artist at the time) and David Wilkerson equally?
I believe that Ravenhill was an excellent judge of character, he clearly saw Keith as someone with a zealous love for Jesus... whom used his gift of music to bring Him glory and bring sometimes painful truth to His children.

Are some people involved in CCM doing so for the wrong motives… yes! Absolutely there are people involved that are doing it for the money, or for self glory. Some are probably doing it just to put food on the table. These are definitely grieving the Holy Spirit.
Does that mean everyone involved in CCM is wicked and Satan led? Absolutely not! It would be just as easy to consider Christian Publishing a wicked extension of satanic materialism as CCM. How many Christian ‘self-help’ books distort the word of God into feel-good easy-believism. How many bible translations are done just to line someone’s wallet? Have you seen the cost of bible software for the PC? Have you looked through the trash that gets stamped with a dove and fish and sold for twice what it would retail for at ‘hot-topic’ in the mall?!
Surely some books, bibles, PC-software and Christian products have been made with the right intentions, but for every one that was there are probably 20 that were made with money or recognition in mind. Should we condemn everyone for the actions of others?

The greatest thing about being a Christian is that for all the bickering we do about who’s right with Christ and who’s not, we don’t have to answer for anyone else at the judgment seat except ourselves. To some people CCM is like eating Meat sacrificed to idols… their intentions are true, unfortunately there are others who would abuse that freedom and create stumbling blocks for others… But unless you’re in a relationship with that person where you can correct them personally you should reserve your judgment! You can’t simply judge a whole group of people for the abuses of a few… Only God can do that! And don’t doubt that he will.

Aside from our complaints about the latest Christian music… we should be grateful, if not grieving in sackcloth that to this day God has found 10 Righteous men in this country (The USA) that it hasn’t been crushed like Sodom.

Ian Smith

 2006/7/24 18:49Profile

Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio

 Re: Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

Arent we missing the point of what "Worldly" really means!?

If worldly meant to be in any way like the world, then what would that imply for the Christian? It would not just touch the style of music we listen to. Why do you work? Doesnt most of the world do that? Arent you worldly if you go to a job every day? Is your hair anything like the world's? Arent there thousands if not millions in the world with a hairstyle just like yours? What about your clothes? How many people in the world do you "imitate" with your clothes? Dont millions of men and women wear long pants, shirts and dresses? How about the internet, radio, driving a car, using a telephone. How many of you use cell phones? That is All The Rage in the world today. Oh, you are oh-so-worldly you who use that cell phone everyday.

Come on. Why dont we try to stop beating these teachings into the ground with our intellects and open our hearts to what Jesus really wants.

What is worldliness? It is having the same attitude towards these things as the world. Do you love ANY music style like the world does? Do you value it above God? Is it a God to you? This is what the world does with rock music. To some, I agree, Christian Rock is a God. To some, no doubt, hymns are also a God.

The same goes for a job. Do you work to feed yourself or your family? Then you are no different than the world. Jesus said "Labor not for the meat that perishes" (jn 6). Why do you go to work everyday? Do you go to work for money? Then you are in sin. Do you go to work because you know that is where God wants you? This is His will. If you work for any other reason, you are worldly! It is your attitude and motive.

Your hairstyle and clothes. Is it because these look like many people in the world that makes it worldly? Certainly not! For then, Jesus was very worldly in his day! According to this line of thought, Paul promoted worldliness! But this, ofcourse, is not the case. It is your attitude toward these things. Do you love your hairstyle, do you love clothes? Do you love the way you look? This is vanity, and this is worldliness.

Internet, radio, driving a car using a cell phone. These are all useful tools that the world LOVES! Are you worldly because you use these things too? Ofcourse not. Why do you use these things? Do you love them because they are cool? Do you love them because they cause you to fit in? Do you spend lots of money on having the coolest gadget? This is worldliness. Do you use them because they are useful tools when submitted to God? This is God's heart for His people.

Lets start being honest with ourselves. Lets stop formulating opinions on EVERYTHING, and instead, really listen to the heart of God. This is the difference between legalism and walking in the Spirit. Legalism is not an issue of how many laws you have, but having any laws at all. The christian is FREE from the law. The Christian has no law. He has no opinons, no ideas, no thoughts, no principles to live by. All He has is a heart submitted to God every minute. It is far easier to have a set of laws to follow, but it is a sad excuse in place of what we are called to. We are called to have a surrendered heart. Lets please, stop beating every issue into the ground, and start listening and submitting ourselves to God. He doesnt care about your opinions. He cares about your soul.

Submit yourself to God. Yes, this will mean that you will obey everything in the word of God. It also means you will go way beyond that! The word of God may not tell you to kiss your wife, or hug your mom, or do the dishes for a friend, but the Spirit might! If all you have are principles and laws which you so proudly live by, then you will miss out on obeying God! Listen to His voice every minute. Give up your law, give up yourself, give up your opinions and analizations of every little verse in the bible and begin to obey Him in love!

Joe E

 2006/7/24 19:40Profile

Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio


I want to make it clear that in my last post I was not promoting a relativistic do-anything-as-long-as-you-have-the-right-motives type of mentality. This is, of course, wrong. You cannot clearly disobey God and claim to be doing it with a right motive. I am speaking strictly of what worldliness is and is not.

Joe E

 2006/7/24 19:57Profile

Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37391
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


A dear brother just emailed me this note with a pdf of the Salvation army stance on music:



I am attaching a pdf file that shows two pages (p. 206 and 207) from Orders and Regulations for Field Officers, 1901 edition, by General Booth and published by the Salvation Army. I think you will find it very interesting . . . the goal was to find tunes that were easy to remember – likely to become “ear worms” – not tunes that would attract a particular audience. This does not quite match up with the modern theory that we should play music to please an audience.


SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2006/7/24 21:41Profile

Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


i didn't say all musicians are satan lead. i said most. the prophets surely didn't have a relationship with all of isreal to speak God's word. you can look at christian music as a whole and see it is full of wickedness. just like you can look at american curches as a whole and see that there is much wickedness. so its o.k. to expose the church of their lukewarmness and harlotry, but not christian musicians? we cry out to warn others of the hypocrisy and wickedness of many american churches, but we can't do that with christian music?! why? because music is a big idol to many people. touch their entertainment and you'll surely get it.

i said nothing about keith green. i like his music. he doesn't water down the word at all. he wouldn't sign autographs and because of that many fans got mad. he spent most of his money toward the kingdom of God. helping many homeless people. he not only preach the word thru his music, but he lived it! you don't find many musicians like keith green.

this is what keith green says:

"I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert,[u] if my music, and more importantly, my life[/u] has not provoked you into Godly jealousy or to sell out more completely to Jesus!"

so is the music your listening to and the artists behind the music, is their life provoking you into godly jelousy and their music encouraging you to sell out more completely to Jesus?

have you been to many youth services playing christain rock music? many christian rock music seem to be leading many profess christian to worldliness, far from the cross. when you see stuff like that in church how can you not be grieved at such things. much of christian music plays a big part in many youths lives and causing them to stray from the narrow path and leading them to the wide road of destruction. its because of todays leaders that allow such harlotry in the church! it doesn't take a super spiritual person to see that much of christian music is all about ME, full of vanity.


 2006/7/24 21:52Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


Keith Green's music is very much a pop-piano. Musically speaking, Keith Green sounds like Elton John. But for Green it was never about the musical style. It was about the message behind the music, not the music itself, that mattered.

Jimmy H

 2006/7/24 23:03Profile

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