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 Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?


[b]Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?[/b]

NO.

Another excuse the CCMer use to justify their "rock" is: "Hey, Martin Luther used drinking and bar tunes in his music"?

There are two major problems with this "justification":
PROBLEM ONE:

It is a LIE!

It’s amazing how many times (at least a hundred) I’ve had CCMers tell me "Martin Luther used drinking and bar tunes in his music". And it’s even more amazing what happens when asked to provide documented evidence to their accusation — it cannot be found! In the many, many times I have asked for documentation to their claim, do you know how many produced any evidence? Exactly ZERO! Why? Because it is simply not true.

Here are the documented FACTS:

"Of the melodies to Luther’s 37 chorales, 15 were composed by Luther himself, 13 came from Latin hymns of Latin service music, 4 were derived from German religious folk songs, 2 had originally been religious pilgrims’ songs, 2 are of unknown origin, and one came directly from a secular folk song." (Data compiled from Squire, pp. 446-447; Leupold, ed., Liturgy and Hymns; and Strodach, ed., Works of Martin Luther, VI)

NOTE: The one secular song was from a popular pre-Reformation (not a drinking tune!) secular song, "I Arrived from an Alien Country," and was used as the melody for the Christmas hymn, "From Heaven on High I Come to You", the first stanza Luther patterned after the folk song.
(source: Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 18)

And here's an interesting FACT — not only that, because of it’s worldly association, Luther later changed the tune!

According to historian Paul Nettl, Luther changed the tune because:

"Luther was embarrassed to hear the tune of his Christmas hymn sung in inns and dance halls." (Paul Nettl, Luther and Music, p. 48)

After researching every published work dealing with Luther’s music, Robert Harrell says point-blank:

"None of the works dealing with Luther’s music can trace a single melody of his back to a drinking song." (Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 34)

Harrell also says:

It seems obvious to this writer that using Luther’s music as an historical precedent for using rock and other worldly music in our churches today is completely incongruous with the facts of history.

Luther did not use the barroom songs of his day, nor did he use even the worldly music of his day. In fact, he was extremely cautious in protecting the Word of God from any admixture of worldly elements. This can be seen in his words: ‘I wish to compose sacred hymns so that the Word of God may dwell among the people also by means of songs.’"
(Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 36)

Furthermore, Martin Luther was very concerned over the words and tunes of his music.

"But I would like to avoid any new words or the language used at court. [DTM – Is that ever contrary to the CCMers who imitate the rock world’s slang and lingo; like dcTalk’s "Jesus Freak"] In order to be understood by the people, only the simplest and the most common words should be used for singing; at the same time, however, they should be pure and apt; and further, the sense should be clear and as close as possible to the psalm."
(Martin Luther, "To George Spalatin," Letters II, p. 69)

Some of Luther’s most famous chorales are paraphrases of the Psalms, such as "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (Psalm 46), "From Deep Distress I Cry to Thee" (Psalm 130), and "Ah, God, from Heaven Look Down" (Psalm 12).

Isn’t it amazing how TOTALLY different the TRUTH is from the CCMers LIE!

"Who changed the TRUTH of God into a LIE, . . ." (Romans 1:25)

Another person CCMer's foolishly try to "recruit" to their "wordly" side is General William Booth. To anyone familiar with the ministry and message of General William Booth, the comparison of Christian Rock to General William Booth is too funny for words. General William Booth and the "old-time" Salvation Army [not to be confused with todays' Salvation Army] carried the message of the blood of Jesus Christ through "the dangers, toils and snares". Booth and his army marched against the "wiles of the wicked one". Here's how the book Born to Battle: The Salvation Army in America begins:

"The mob numbered thousands. They hooted, screamed, spit, cursed, threw refuse and brickbats, and charged with what the press described as 'savage ferocity'."
The assaulted, marching to council in Sheffield, England, did not retaliate but continued to march forward, drums booming, flags flying, singing about the conquering Son of God. The troops were commanded by General William Booth who, despite taunts of 'Kill 'em!' and 'Down with The Salvation Army! stood riding in a open carriage with Mrs. Boothe beside him.
Bruised and bleeding, their uniforms muddied, torn and buttonless, the forces arrived at their fort shouting, 'Hallelujah'!"
(Sallie Chesham, Born to Battle: The Salvation Army in America, p.21)

Only a CCMer could compare the "wordly-carnal-men-pleasing-compromising-positive-feel-good" CCM to the "street-preaching-hated-gospel-bearer-at-any-cost" General William Booth. To show how COMPLETELY opposite from the "watered-down-partying-feel-good-positive-self-esteem" message of CCM — here's a few quotes by General Booth:

When someone told Booth to "talk about peace".
"No!" William replied, "the best preaching is damnation with the Cross in the middle!" (Ibid p. 37)

"Any profession of Jesus Christ which brings no Cross is all nonsense." (Ibid)

"I don't care how near to the bottmless pit I go in order to save mankind."

"Soul-saving music is the music for me!"

One quote of General Booths that CCMers "use" to justify their carnal-love for rock music is Booth's "If standing on my head and beating a tamborine with my toes will win a soul for Jesus, I will do it." The BIG difference between Booth and CCM is — General Booth meant it! CCMers just quote it to justify their "love" for rock music. As we have documented in several articles most CCMer's hide, disguise or refuse to even name the name of Jesus!

Would General William Booth agree with the CCMer's use of worldy rock music? Not on your life! Here's a quote from General Booth:

"May none of our musicians ever ape [copy] the skill of the world in the production of merely pretty sounds, not only disconnected with the quickening truth of God but often almost inaudible [perfect description of CCM rock] to those whose hearts they ought to stir. (Ibid, p. 188)"

Fanny Crosby, the greatest hymn writer that ever lived, would not make a very good CCMer: Here's what the greatest hymn writer that ever lived said about mixing Christian with worldy music:

"Sometimes I need to reject the music propsed for my songs because the musicians misunderstand that the Fanny Crosby who once wrote for the people in the saloons has merely changed the lyrics. Oh my no. The church must never sing it's songs to the melodies of the world." (Danny Castle, video "What's Wrong with Christian Rock")

PROBLEM TWO:

Besides being a flat-out LIE — the second problem with the "Hey, Martin Luther used drinking and bar tunes in his music" reasoning is even more serious — It goes completely against the clear teaching of the Word of God: (as does most of CCM)

One way the world justifies their "sin" is: "well, everyone else does it" or "so and so does it, so it must be alright".

Hey — "if he can do it – I can do it!"

But the Bible clearly teaches us NOT to compare "ourselves one with another".

"For we dare NOT make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
2 Cor. 10:12

After the resurrection, in John 21, Peter looked at John and asked the Lord Jesus:

"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?"
John 21:21

Notice what the Lord Jesus told Peter:

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
John 21:22

The Lord Jesus told Peter, don’t worry about John — you just "follow thou me". Get your eyes off of other men — "follow thou me".

While we think a lot of Martin Luther and his role in church history, we would never "follow" Martin Luther — except where Martin followed the Lord Jesus Christ. Either for good or bad. Martin Luther is just another man, an unrighteous sinner.

Again it should be emphasized — Martin Luther did NOT use bar tunes in his music — but even if he did, that would not make it RIGHT!

We are to follow ONLY the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow ME." Matthew 16:24:

from:
http://www.av1611.org/question/cqluther.html


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2006/7/23 17:36Profile
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 Re: Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

Didn't William Boothe use bar tunes?


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Keith

 2006/7/23 23:55Profile
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Joined: 2006/4/13
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 Re:

I've never heard this said of Luther or Booth. I have heard it said of Wesley though.


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Kerrigan Skelly

 2006/7/24 0:00Profile
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 Re:

"Didn't Charles Wesley say 'Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music'?"
"NO".
"Then it was Martin Luther."
"NO. It wasn't Martin Luther."
"Then it must have been General William Booth."
"NO."
"Hummh … Then, it was John Newton."
"NO."
"Oh. I know. It was Isaac Watts."
"NO. It wasn't Isaac."
"Well, who said, 'Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music'?"
Larry Norman and the CCMers!

In order to justify their disobedience to the Word of God and their love for rock music, CCMers claim everyone from Martin Luther; to General William Booth; to John Newton made the infamous statement "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?".

But where did "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?" actually come from?

The "mis-quote" was taken from a message Reverend Rowland Hill, pastor of Surrey Chapel in London, preached in 1844. Reverend Hill did NOT say, "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?" — what he actually said was, "The devil should not have all the best tunes." Reverend Hill's message was not a "call" to copy or bring the "devil's" music in the church. During the time Reverend Hill preached his message, in England, church music had fallen in both quantity and quality, which is certainly not the case today. His message was a "call" for Christians to write, compose and produce quality Christian music. It was NOT an appeal for Christians to sing the "devil's" music for the Lord. (Lowell Hart, Satan's Music Exposed, pp. 169-170) (V.J. Charlesworth, Rowland Hill, p.156)


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2006/7/24 0:33Profile
iansmith
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Posts: 963
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 Re: Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

Well should I stop listening to Keith Green?! Honestly speaking, he said stuff in his songs that more than 50 percent of preachers in america wouldn't stand up in front of their congregation and dare to say... so does the fact that his music is set to up-tempo piano-rock take away from the conviction of his message?
I would highly recommend reading the article he wrote about the debate he had himself with the issue:
http://lastdaysministries.com/articles/cangoduserockmusic.html


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Ian Smith

 2006/7/24 2:08Profile
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Quote:

iansmith wrote:
Well should I stop listening to Keith Green?! Honestly speaking, he said stuff in his songs that more than 50 percent of preachers in america wouldn't stand up in front of their congregation and dare to say... so does the fact that his music is set to up-tempo piano-rock take away from the conviction of his message?
I would highly recommend reading the article he wrote about the debate he had himself with the issue:
http://lastdaysministries.com/articles/cangoduserockmusic.html


Good article by Keith Green!

Greg what do you think of this quote from the article?
Quote:
Have you ever heard the stories of how John and Charles Wesley took many of the popular "drinking songs" of their day and put Christian lyrics to them? And it didn't matter how much success they had in reaching sinners using these tunes - most of the people in the church absolutely deplored their methods!

And then the Salvation Army came along, and had the nerve to put hymns to marching music - and then proceeded to play and sing these "lewd songs" (as the traditional church of their day called them) out in the streets on Sundays! They even followed in the Wesley brothers' footsteps, taking tunes from the drunk-filled taverns, and "converting" them into worshipful choruses, or ringing appeals for people to surrender their lives to Christ! And never have there been so many "common people" converted in England than through the unorthodox efforts of those early "Salvation Soldiers."

Oh, how harmless those melodies would sound now to our grandparents' ears. But their grandparents thought that the devil himself was on the loose with music-demons!



:-? :-o


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Combat Chuck

 2006/7/24 3:11Profile
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 Re:

I dont know if Booth made that comment, but I think he did use bar songs, but changed the lyrics.

Keith Green has bold music. More people should write songs like his. We dont need to baby people but tell them the truth, ofcourse with love. But the truth can be lovingly said in a sharp, cutting way.


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Keith

 2006/7/24 4:43Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

i dont know... i dont see keith greens music that much of rock.... its a little in that direction but i dont think its ungodly music.... but now days we have hevy metal roch christian bands...thats insane!!! one man said its like christian beer.... they just dont go toghter, i surfed the net i found christian gangster rap!!! just those three words toghter are a contradiction...now i used to listen to such music before i was a child of god... and i do belive there are some of the "worldly" music that would be ok.... as long as it doesent glorify the world and its sin...

my self i remember i had about 2000 songs on my computer the day before i was saved.... the next day i had none...i listend to them and whit some kind of sorrow... becuse im a big lover of music, i deleted them all... now i have some godly music and so on... but i dont listen to the same music i used to listen to... i have heard rap music whit god godly lyrics and not beats straight out of hell... i have heard up tempo rockisch music like keith greens that i belive is ok... but when it is exactly like the worlds music...when it dresses exactly as the world does... when the performer uplifts himself as the worldy music... then its of the world...i dont care about if the neme the name of jesus in there somewhere...

the question might be to some people...what is it in that music that meke you so love it that you cant stop listening to it??? how come it got such a hold of you...??? maybe we love music about jesus more that jesus himself,

just some thoughts about this.....and what are ccmers??? what does it stand for?

gods peace to you
christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/7/24 9:48Profile









 Re:

Didn’t Martin Luther use drinking and bar tunes in his music?

Sorry couldn't resist!

 2006/7/24 11:09
WorldView
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Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

I have a decent size collection of christian rock music. Probably about 20 cds, not the screaming type though, it sounds demonic. No conviction here about my Christina rock cds, nor will I allow anyone to try to heap their own religious conviction on me, if the Lord Himself has not. People get saved through it beliveve it or not. Just last month two people got saved because they never knew that Christianity had rock music and that caused them to want to know more about Christ.

Is Christianity restrained from expressing itself through upbeat music and even rap. Yes I know Christians who rap. It is a good evangelism tool as well as a ministering outlet for those who like rap. I own Christian rap and even get ministered to through it.

Though I can definitely agree that the devil is trying to dilute the message in Christian music. Is he doing that in rock and rap music, quite possibly, though I would not stereo-tpye all Christian rock and rap bands by putting them in that category. There are some whith a good message focusing on Christ, and I think that there are some that call themselves Christian bands simply because they dont have a sinful message in it although their message is not directly uplifting Christ.

I find that my favorite tpye of Christian music is worhsip and bands like Jeremy Camp, Third Day and Shawn McDonnald; people whos message is clear (Christ) and well sung in an understandable and catchy way.

by the way, none of this was geared towards hmmhmm, I agree with his points. People do worship music and I have been recently ministering to someone I know who has this problem.

I used to love to listen to music also owning over 2,000 songs. I still have the songs, seeing as they are all Christian bands. Though over the past few months I have come to the place where I rarely listen to music. And when I do, it is usually not the rock type. Not that it is bad, but that it doesn't minister to me like other forms do.


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Keith

 2006/7/24 11:32Profile





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