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 Re:

I think this was a quote from Mike (not sure)

Quote:
Where is the office of being put on a shelf for a season, or the office of suffering, the title of persecution, the gift of ... not speaking and being in adverse situations, financially destitute, living under daily threat or living with an unbelieving family and suffering quietly. What tends to get overlooked in this whole matter is the emphasis on "me".

AMEN! That really resonates personally. I’ve been in the state of “being put on a shelf for a season” for some years, and the Lord has done so much preparation for whatever He does have next, taught me so much, and healed so much inner hurt during that time. Hurt that was only important in His purpose because it made serving Him and following Him fully almost impossible…

 2007/12/21 16:51









 Re:

Quote:

WorldView wrote:
...I embrace the prophetic, while being warry of its pitfalls, being one who operates in it myself. The more I am in the ministry, the more I see the prophetic springing out of me.

Am I a prophet? I dont know.

Thank you Keith, I'm 100% with you on this...

Quote:
Just today I delivered a prophetic word before our leadership and our entire Bible college. It didn't seem all too signifigant to me. God just showed me something and prompted me when it was time to get up and deliver it. When it came out of my mouth, it came forth in power, and it had a greater impact that I thought it would. It actually kind of scared me when I saw the results.

After I delivered the message, my leader took the mic and began to cry out to God very passionately and in tears. Then I noticed other people in the room in tears and crying out. I was like, "Ooooh God." My leader was declaring it to be a Word from the Lord and telling everyone to write it down. And it is kind of scarey to have people claim words comming from my mouth to be the Word of God, though I have no doubt that they were.

That's awesome! It's a sign that we are really being used of God when it's that obvious to all that it isn't us! Almost it's like sitting back and watching or hearing someone else...

in HIm

Jeannette

 2007/12/21 16:57









 Re:

Quote:
Mike said:

The standard of the 'prophetic' cannot be any different than the standard for all of us as the Lords own.

That is so true

What exactly makes a prophet true or false? Is it solely judged on whether their prophecies come true or not?

False prophets have spoken true words (Balaam and Caiaphas are classic Biblical examples). So might the converse also be seen, that a true prophet could make mistakes in thinking something was from God and it isn’t after all?

Could it be that the person and his prophecy are not always linked as closely as we tend to assume? We need to discern the [i]man[/i], as well as the message he brings.

I'm only asking this question because of not being sure myself, here and in the last post about what makes a prophecy true or false - eg as here, if the time isn't correct. The Old Testament condemns someone whose prophecies are wrong, (Deut 18) which is worrying because, if nothing happens by Dec 31st, I wouild hate to have to put these two in the same league as so many of the obviously false prophets who are around these days...

One characteristic of a true prophet seems to me to be humility, and willingness to admit he could be wrong. Jeremiah, when the Lord told him that his cousin would come and offer to sell his field (where the Babylonian army was probably camped at the time!) didn’t seem quite sure at first. When it happened he said, “Then I knew that it was the word of the Lord.”

Quote:
This doesn't necessarily apply to some of the statements made elsewhere here. The 'ease' for a lack of a better word is troubling, the defending and ever ongoing explanation of the 'office' and the 'prophet' that seems to shed less ... credibility rather than more. The concern seems put back on the man rather than on the Lord. That, is what is I guess so troubling.

Mmmm you could be right on this, Mike..

I'm not sure one way or another about the prophetic claims. Many of us on this forum do move in the prophetic gift, but the office of prophet is something else.

But whatever, I love these brothers...

in Him

Jeannette

 2007/12/21 17:13
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, some of you know that len ravenhill and i were friends.here is how we met... i was working in retail under strict rules of no preaching on the clock (stealing)... an old man came in my department and that voice said "go ask this man if he wasd ready today to meet the judge of all creation; Jesus the Christ. it was bro len. jimp

 2007/12/21 17:19Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
And if economic collapse doesn't come at the end of this year, does that mean Ironman and Rahman are false prophets, or not???



This is a very interesting situation we have here.

I think we should hold Ironman and Rhaman to the same standards they are holding themselves to. They have given us a date of economic collapse by 2007 and they said unequivically that if this not come to pass then they will recant and cease from prophesying. What is really at stake here is not the integrity of these two men, but of our integrity as friends and as brethren. For if we move the goal posts on this one, we only add confusion to an already maligned and misunderstood gift.

While there are many slippery definitions of prophesy afoot today, when we make predictions with certain dates, we are making a clear guileless prophecy that cannot be spun. This kind of prophesy does not pose itself as the 'heart of God' or a 'confirmation of the Word' or start finding calendar loopholes or some other liquid post-adapatable thing. On the contrary, the date makes it certain what kind of prophesy Ironman attempted---Ironman believed God called and enabled him to predict history...prewritten history.

Now Ironman and Rhaman have made no bones about the type of prophecy they attempted, nor offered apologies or set up no escape-clause for their predictions. This too is a measure of their integrity...and with such a true heart I would be hard pressed to cause these brothers 'false'. Yet, if by 2007 our economy doesn't collapse in some fashion according to their descriptions of suffering and lamentation, then we know they haven't prophesied but merely imagined and believed. If we saints, who love them, are unable to be truthful to one another about this, then we are more false then they, for they are making no excuses. For the sake of the body, we hold prophesy to a gold standard, or the gift is fiat and good only for confusion in the church. Indeed, I fear it is already that anyways.

If we allow our love for these two brothers to be confused with sentiment then perhaps we have no one to blame for false prophets but ourselves.

If sentiment be our chief guide, then what is our sentiment for this [url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,240841,00.html]prophet?[/url]All I can say, if Mr. Robertson was as humble and transparent as Ironman and Rhamah are, my sentiment towards him might be better. The difference is that the former seems uncorrectable, while our two brothers are still growing and open to correction. Perhaps we can say there is a difference between a false prophesy and a false prophet.

But it is important that we don't gyrate around this just to save feelings. This isn't the Oprah show.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/12/21 17:22Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

MC, well said. Very well said.

jimp; That was something ... what was his response?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/12/21 17:34Profile









 Re: S.H.A.P.E. ??? ...

Quote:

Rahman wrote:


[b]Sis Jeannette ...

What is S.H.A.P.E.? ...[/b]

You know it was a real shock for me to come out of the error of the JW religion at 29, only to find such a diversity of other errors in the true Body of which it's obvious many have fallen into ... i'm glad God delivered me from the error of the JW's but in retro they're pretty consistent with their error, not to much has changed in JW theology in the past 50 years of my knowledge of them, whereas within The Body there seems to be one movement after another ... i don't know, but if bro I and i are in error it's not of S.H.A.P.E. because we don't even know what that is ...

I can't remember what the letters SHAPE stand for exactly, (could look it up if there's time) but it's one of Rick Warren's things, or those connected with him. Basically (if I remember right) it's a way of "maximising one's potential" by finding out what natural and spiritual gifts the Lord has given you and developing them.

It's all man-centred and man-exalting, even when supposed to be serving God through our giftings.

Quote:
i'm just amazed at where i am right now at this very moment spiritually, having come from such a closed, and locked down background where to say one heard from God, if one was not a member of the elite brethren in NY, was grounds for serious reprimand,

Right or wrong, prophetic calling or not, the Lord has brought you far, Brother. You will fail (as we all do) but He won't fail you. That's the importatnt thing...

in Him

Jeannette

 2007/12/21 17:42









 Re:

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Quote:
And if economic collapse doesn't come at the end of this year, does that mean Ironman and Rahman are false prophets, or not???

This is a very interesting situation we have here.

I think we should hold Ironman and Rhaman to the same standards they are holding themselves to. They have given us a date of economic collapse by 2007 and they said unequivically that if this not come to pass then they will recant and cease from prophesying. What is really at stake here is not the integrity of these two men, but of our integrity as friends and as brethren. For if we move the goal posts on this one, we only add confusion to an already maligned and misunderstood gift.

While there are many slippery definitions of prophesy afoot today, when we make predictions with certain dates, we are making a clear guileless prophecy that cannot be spun. This kind of prophesy does not pose itself as the 'heart of God' or a 'confirmation of the Word' or start finding calendar loopholes or some other liquid post-adapatable thing. On the contrary, the date makes it certain what kind of prophesy Ironman attempted---Ironman believed God called and enabled him to predict history...prewritten history.

Now Ironman and Rhaman have made no bones about the type of prophecy they attempted, nor offered apologies or set up no escape-clause for their predictions. This too is a measure of their integrity...and with such a true heart I would be hard pressed to cause these brothers 'false'. Yet, if by 2007 our economy doesn't collapse in some fashion according to their descriptions of suffering and lamentation, then we know they haven't prophesied but merely imagined and believed. If we saints, who love them, are unable to be truthful to one another about this, then we are more false then they, for they are making no excuses. For the sake of the body, we hold prophesy to a gold standard, or the gift is fiat and good only for confusion in the church. Indeed, I fear it is already that anyways.

If we allow our love for these two brothers to be confused with sentiment then perhaps we have no one to blame for false prophets but ourselves.

If sentiment be our chief guide, then what is our sentiment for this [url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,240841,00.html]prophet?[/url]All I can say, if Mr. Robertson was as humble and transparent as Ironman and Rhamah are, my sentiment towards him might be better. The difference is that the former seems uncorrectable, while our two brothers are still growing and open to correction. Perhaps we can say there is a difference between a false prophesy and a false prophet.

But it is important that we don't gyrate around this just to save feelings. This isn't the Oprah show.

Blessings,

MC

Thank you so much for this. Especially the reminder not to "move the goalposts" and "If we allow our love for these two brothers to be confused with sentiment then perhaps we have no one to blame for false prophets but ourselves."

Indeed I have been tiptoing around this issue because of "sentiment", although it was more than sentiment. It was also a sort of "referred self-defence", as your words made me realise.

I'm over-sensitive on the subject because of having been personally rejected more than once as a result of giving something I believed was from God. Maybe it [i]was[/i] of God, (on one occasion it certainly turned out to be true - not sure about others), but those I shared it with didn't think so, and rejected me because of it.

So the thought of others being made to suffer as I did is so horrible that there's a tendency to err on the opposite side. Even though the Lord has been healing the hurts there are still scars...

Thank you once more MC, you are absolutely right.

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/12/21 18:08
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: question for Mike - slight digression...

The acronym for "SHAPE" ;

Spiritual gifts:
Heart:
Abilities:
Personality:
Experiences:

Here is another one, "FLAB"

Faith
Liabilities
Attitude
Brokenness

;-)

Quote:
Just a question Mike...

A while back you rejected a prophecy I posted, (it wasn't through anyone on SI), giving the reason that it was in the first person, speaking "as the Lord". At the time, though finding your response rather hurtful, (the Lord had spoken deeply to my heart through that particular word), I made no comment because there was a heated debate going on and I didn't want to cause further bad feeling.

But I'm wondering... Do you still hold to that view, or was it just a reaction to what was going on in the debate at the time?



Hi Sister, truly sorry to hear this, that you were hurt ... it is difficult not recalling what you are referring to now. Just as well, without going back over a lot of ground and rehashing so much of this ... Yes, still find almost all of this prophetic business as it is construed in our day to be pretty far flung and far too casual in utterance, more so when it does go into a "thus sayeth ..." mode of operation.

This still to me, keeps coming back to a definition of what it is and what it means, especially in a New Testament understanding. Actually, I may have strayed here a bit and now recognize more of what you are getting at regarding the first person as exampled by the Psalm you posted. It did catch me a bit (even back at the time I was making note of it) when I recalled that this is often the case, going back and forth as David does, others as well ... Seems to be something of prose I am fairly sure as much as anything.

I don't really see this Psalm as being 'prophetic' however. Interestingly, there was a time when that last verse was something very personal to me ...

I am in agreement with Sparks when he made mention of us all often 'getting our wires crossed' in spiritual\natural matters and think this is where our day has really exemplified that. As MC pointed out, it isn't the person that is under scrutiny if that could be taken in the sense I mean, as much as what he or she is speaking as an 'oracle of God' or from\for Him personally. Recognize the verse that speaks to this very matter but I am still hanging on definitions. To the best of my understanding a prophecy is a "[u]so[/u]" not a "maybe" or a "perhaps" or something close, something that needs defending and explanation and so and and so forth. I still receive and still cringe at the 'prophetic' "words" given out by way of newsletter from Charisma magazine for istance, why I continue to receive it? ... I like J. Lee Grady well enough for his heart and other things, his commentary, etc. but am still puzzled over these 'prophetic' industries and speakers and this constant free flow of contradicting ... sentiment that is produced through them. Most of it is completely vague and so general as to mean absolutely nothing at all, kind of a Christian "Horoscope" that anyone could find anything they might want to derive out of it. Only using this as an example of what has become a whole cottage industy or 'ministry' these days.

This is all far more than I am really up to speaking towards to be honest right now. It is something that I find a great deal of trouble with and fear for the weaker Brethren who take it all in and later have it just kind of fade off into no importance when all these utterances never come to pass, it devalues what even the spurious definition might be and makes one wonder why the bother in the first place.

Something to leave off with;

[i]And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.[/i]

"[i]... for the testimony of Jesus ... is the spirit of prophecy[/i]"

There is a lot of context to be sure here, "[i]of thy brethren ... that have the testimony ... of Jesus[/i]"

Taking all this into account, coupled with some thoughts from an article mentioned earlier;

"[i]He never apologized for any word or action."[/i] And yet, is it not true that the ability to apologize is one of the elements of true greatness? It is the small-minded man who will not stoop to apologize. But Christ performed no action and spoke no word that required apology.

[i]He never asked for pardon.[/i] Nowhere is it indicated that he ever felt remorse for sin or exhibited any fear of future punishment. He admonished His disciples when they prayed to say, “Forgive us our debts,” but He never related those words to Himself, because He owed no debts either moral or spiritual.

[i]He never sought advice[/i] from even the wisest men of His day. All other great leaders consulted learned men, even Moses and Solomon. On the rare occasions in which well meaning friends gave advice to Jesus, He rejected it, as for example when His mother reminded Him of the lack of wine at the wedding feast (John 2:4-5)."

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21331&forum=35#166722]The Moral Perfection of Christ ~ J. Oswald Sanders[/url]

It would truly take a reading through the complete article to get the manner which I would be equating this whole consideration to.

Really it does boil down to "it is [i]so[/i]" or it is not. There just cannot be all this equivocation in speaking in God's stead.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/12/21 23:34Profile









 Re: Prophetic Credentials II



MC said

Quote:
Yet, if by 2007 our economy doesn't collapse in some fashion according to their descriptions of suffering and lamentation, then we know they haven't prophesied but merely imagined and believed.

Mike,

I'm wondering how you read Daryl's post at the top of p9?

Also, I hear the UK may well reduce its interest rates again, having followed the US in a counter-intuitive bid to keep our economies afloat.

I'll be amazed, frankly, if Western economies don't show serious signs of deterioration by the third quarter of next year... and that's not a word from God.

Btw, I thought Daryl made several good points:
Quote:
once a prophesy is given,,,especially in impendening judgement or doom, there's always a thread of mercy that can turn away the judgement or make a way escape [i]or at least delay it for a time[/i]. The Nature of the prophesy has to be consistant with the present age of grace and the purposes of God which is that all may be saved unto Jesus Christ, so every prophesy must point ultimately to eternal salvation. [i]emphasis mine[/i]

I learned quite a bit from Daryl. :-) Another good post, bro.

 2007/12/22 0:30





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