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Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: And though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love,



Bro Mike you wrote;
"IF one is so utterly assured that they are a Prophet then why pray tell is there so much defending? Would it not seem that NO ONE would dissuade you, not those outside nor even your closet Brethren, is it your detractors or more so your defenders that should be eyed with suspicion, who with a ready acknowledgment of agreement are lending support without question.

The whole problem with this matter of defending is that it cast's doubt instantly upon "your word'. If the thing is true, state it and leave it, why would it need any defending? The "Lord" has spoken as it goes, since when has that which He has ever uttered prophetically ever not come to pass?"


i'm posting to you here bro Mike not in defence of whether i am a "you know what" or not, but in attempts to perhaps shed some light on why the defending in the first place ... i totally agree with you on the no need to defend, and if only any of us could but come into all that happens to us in this faith after our becoming Christ's with such instant assuredness and maturity not to react, or be as near perfect as we can be in our calling ... But when in spiritual immaturity we've not yet learned how to in Christ "hold our peace" and over-ride our humanity, our flesh, for as humans saved and unsaved alike we crave acceptance and inclusion from our fellows ... Defending is of course a "natural effect" which should have no place in a "supernatural cause" as with Jesus when He didn't reply to Pilate, but scripture shows us that many men of God, like men as ourselves, reacted immaturily to both the initial call of God and the subsequent negative reactions it caused their lives up till the point where God brought them to some maturity ... i think of Moses and how even tho he had walked and talked with God for such a long time in the end he forgot for a split second his spiritual maturity and reacted to the people in anger and struck the rock, and look what it cost him ... That's why i beleieve our Lord is impressing on me so tough my need to look out on and filter everything that comes my way thru His love so that i won't continue to react immaturily, but as He
would have me react ...

So in this matter of defending i want to re-post what our Lord said to me during the first Prophetic Credentials squabble:

Quote;
"In a much wearied talking with our Lord last night about so much of which is contained in the civil but contentious contents of this very thread ... eventually i heard Him clearly say to me ... "Just be" ...

To all my fellow saints out there who believe themselves "called" by God to the ministry that men will not allow us to even define ourselves by without it being turned upon us as a negative ... Stop discussing ... stop defining ... stop defending ... and "Just be" ... In Jesus blessed name ... Amen ..."


i know that bro Ironman, like any of us, has to do whatever he believes led of our Lord to do, and so now we have Prophetic Credentials II ... But as for me, tho it's taken such a long time, He has brought me to a better place of maturity where the stings of rejection are no where near as painful as they once were ... In fact in regards to being accepted or believed regarding this subject i can now better understand Dr. King's Mountaintop speach, particularly the part where he said "it doesn't matter to me now" ... i wish to God being accepted and believed never did matter to me - but it did, but as Paul said, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." ... In this matter i am no longer a child and i bless God for His longsuffering on my behalf ... But i'll tell you what does matter to me now, and that's the love we're supposed to show to one another ... This too is something that i believe our Lord has laid upon my heart to "just be" in because as with the other thing i seem burdened with for so long it's not something i would chose for myself - for until our Lord brings us to His maturity in becoming His love to others it also hurts ...

Bro Mike you also wrote;
"There is every good reason to suspect that the vast majority of those thinking themselves to be prophets are not and that they have not considered the weight of speaking in God's stead with all the seriousness that is required. Again, if this finds trouble with the 'prophet' he ought to have serious doubt's whether or not that which his imagination is telling him, the mixed bag of the natural proclivities and the still undeveloped spiritual disposition is being wrought through him or her has any true ... truth to it. Could it not be that the wires are crossed?"

Wires crossed? ... Could it be my imagination? ... This is something that i've wrestled with off and on over the past two decades ... i call it "is it live (God) - or is it memorex (me, or worse yet the devil) ... i've also said to folk that "i'm either in divine inclusion, or strong satanic delusion", and that "if all this is my imagination, then i'm in need of serious psychiatric help" ... God and time will reveal, but as i said prior a real peace has come over me because i've made a decision to "one way" believe that what i beleive He's said to me will come to pass ... i no longer care (and without any animosity praise God!) whether i'm accepted or what i proclaim about REVIVAL is believed ...
i believe it, and in our one on one encounter i also have come to believe really that's all that matters to God ...

Have a blessed day bro Mike!

 2006/7/26 10:54Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Prophetic Credentials II



Worldview wrote;
"Each of your points may be correct, but to assume that it is the whole picture would be wrong."

Amen ... That's why the following verses in 1Cor.13 are so important to me ... [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known ... It's why the scripture that tells us we need every member of the Body is important ... It's also why this SI Forum is so important too in that so many believers come together with our different whatevers and they're rubbed up against one another sometimes rather painfully, and at other times more soothing like being polished, but no matter what i believe thru this all God is making us grow and glow as He will have us ...

Bless Christ Jesus for the opportunity of SI's sermons and Forum, for without it i can't imagine how or what Holy Spirit could have used as it's eqivalent to move me from where i was when i was first led here to where He's grown (matured) me to now ... Thank You Jesus!!!

 2006/7/26 10:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

InTheLight's

Quote:
Another thought here, did the early church believe in any successors to the original twelve apostles and Paul?


I doubt that any current self-styled apostles and prophets actually see themselves as 'successors' to the 12 and Paul.

There were other apostles in NT times who were not 'foundational'. “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
(Rev 21:14 KJVS) Foundations do not really have 'successors'. It does seem that Matthias was a 'replacement' apostle but there was no replacement for 'James' in Acts 12:2.

Barnabas, for example, was recognised as an apostle...“Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,”
(Acts 14:14 KJVS) Later Titus is referred to as an apostle“whether — about Titus — my partner and towards you fellow-worker, whether — our brethren, apostles of assemblies — glory of Christ;”
(2Cor 8:23 YNG) as is Epaphroditus in Phil 2:25.

Apostles it seems is a wider term than evangelicals have usually perceived it to be.

There is an interesting comment from Paul...“If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.”
(1Cor 9:2 KJVS) This might be a clue as to how we recognise contemporary apostles. The establishing of the church in Corinth, from scratch, identified Paul as the 'apostle' to that church. The same kind of pattern would fit Epaphroditus and the church at Colossae.

The problem we have is with the language of “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:”
(Rom 11:13 KJVS) which is now embedded into the evangelical mind and which is a serious mistranslation. The latter half of the statement should read "I glorify my service". It is this confusion of service and office which is very much the legacy of King James and his Bible!

Paul's letter to the church that he had 'apostled' in also significant in another passage..“Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”
(2Cor 12:10-12 KJVS) Here we have a list of apostolic characteristics...
1.infirmities,
2.reproaches,
3.necessities,
4.persecutions,
5.distresses for Christ’s sake
6.patient endurance
7.signs
8.wonders
9.mighty deeds

as they used to say 'only dead men need apply'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/7/26 13:05Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re:

philologos you said--

Here we have a list of apostolic characteristics...
1.infirmities,
2.reproaches,
3.necessities,
4.persecutions,
5.distresses for Christ’s sake
6.patient endurance
7.signs
8.wonders
9.mighty deeds

as they used to say 'only dead men need apply'


Wouldn't some of these characteristic you listed
apply to Christians in China, North Korea, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, or in other countries where there is no religious freedom? Our brothers and sisters are suffering daily. I've heard reports of miracles in those countries.



_________________
Melissa

 2006/7/26 14:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Wouldn't some of these characteristic you listed apply to Christians in China, North Korea, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, or in other countries where there is no religious freedom? Our brothers and sisters are suffering daily. I've heard reports of miracles in those countries.


Yes they would but characteristics are not the same as qualifications. However I would expect a genuine apostle to have witnessed God at work in these areas.

I am not trying to set up a 'qualification' for apostles only to say this is the kind of people apostles are.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/7/26 17:47Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro mike
i'm not coming out in my own defense but i feel led of God to share this testimony and like i said noone can convince me otherwise of what i know our Lord told me. i will say though that if one of us messes around and speaks a word from our Lord, it's not likely that they will go unchallenged. bro Rahman said that for him this stage is past and it seems for me that i've yet to finish this coming out stage.

you said:

Quote:
The whole problem with this matter of defending is that it cast's doubt instantly upon "your word'. If the thing is true, state it and leave it, why would it need any defending? The "Lord" has spoken as it goes, since when has that which He has ever uttered prophetically ever not come to pass?



i don't think that it even has to go to the stage where one defends himself for there to be doubt on the word. that seems to me like it's a given...

Quote:
More so, where is the "out" in these prophetic utterances? "Unless you .... repent ... turn back, etc."



at this stage there is no averting judgement. we're past the proactive repentance stage so it's going to be repentance in reaction to the judgment.of course if we repent we will not be subject to God's wrath but how many are willing to repent? how many would repent even knowing that would avert judgement? it doesn't seem like many to me bro. remember what happened with that word our Lord had me deliver to us all on S.I. that we need to repent? that didn't go over to well but the fact is none of us here can say we don't need to repent any more and if we are to preach such a word to the world, it can have no life unless we are living it for all to see.

Quote:
There is far too much credence given in this judicial equivalent of 'innocent until proven guilty' mindset that is not scriptural. I would expect the backslidden to revolt and heap abuse on the prophet who is speaking the very Truth, the very utterances of God through human lips. I would expect the 'heathen' (who are more often more honest than the saints) to rebel against such a 'word' whatever it may be. I would not expect the indwelt believer to have anything but a spiritual acknowledgment to the truth in matters of specific prophecy and believe this is much closer to the sentiment of;



bro indeed you would expect this type of reaction from the heathen and backslidden.however when the prophets were sent to the jews they rejected them for the most part and then when Christ came He too was rejected, i'd have expected Him to be embraced by His people. it seems to me the prophet is sent to the Church, i don't know of God sending prophets in o.t. times to anyone else aside from the Jews (except jonah to nineveh) to call them to repentance. as the word says, judgement begins int he house of God so we ought to be the first ones to get the message to repent because if we don't and we're meant to be the example, how then can the world come to repentance? if we think we don't need to repent or are somehow exempt from judgment will we not just sit on our butts?

Quote:
To the prophet who thinks himself so. Examine thyself, judge yourself and allow those more spiritual than yourself whoever they may be to exhort you to a certainty of what so easily can pass through the lips in the Name of the Lord. If you have nothing to worry about, prove it by your silence, make your statement and disappear into the sunset, if it is the Lords doing it will come to pass, if not you have every reason to doubt and question just what spirit, what misunderstanding crossed up in the wires of your mind is telling you



that's something crucial bro...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/7/26 23:03Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro mike

Quote:
There is every good reason to suspect that the vast majority of those thinking themselves to be prophets are not and that they have not considered the weight of speaking in God's stead with all the seriousness that is required. Again, if this finds trouble with the 'prophet' he ought to have serious doubt's whether or not that which his imagination is telling him, the mixed bag of the natural proclivities and the still undeveloped spiritual disposition is being wrought through him or her has any true ... truth to it. Could it not be that the wires are crossed?



bro i agree that a lot of people running around saying they are prophets are not. ever since our Lord called me to this, i've wrestled with "is this for real or am i really really trippin?"if i am, brethren i need every prayer i can get coz i's way out to sea...but i've agonized over it, sought our Lord over it and believe it to be true. being doubleminded is really draining... :-?

i'm sure in short order our Lord will have me share some things concerning future judgement. thus far i have no definite dates from Him but a general time frame with some things set to happen by the end of the year and the economic collapse set to happen (according to Him) some time next year which could be Jan 1 all the way to december 31 at 11:59.59 i suppose. outside of these, i've no further dates. however as events unfold i hear more and more our Lord telling me how fit into the plan.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/7/26 23:27Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

You know I think where some, if not many contemporary prophets go wrong, is that they are so used to having the Lord speak through them that they begin to assume that everything they have to say is of God.

I submit that as food for thought.

What I want to see are more Samuel prophets. The Lord let none of his words fail. That is porbably because he only spoke what he knew was the word of the Lord.

I want to see more Elisha's to. When the Shunammite woman came to him on behalf of her dead son he said,"...the LORD has hidden it from me and has not told me." He was in such communication with God then when something happened that he did not know about, it was because God hid it from him.

Actually I dont want to just see it, I want it in myself.


_________________
Keith

 2006/7/27 2:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
thus far i have no definite dates from Him but a general time frame with some things set to happen by the end of the year and the economic collapse set to happen (according to Him) some time next year which could be Jan 1 all the way to december 31 at 11:59.59


So your reputation as a prophet is dependent upon an economic collapse which will [u]have happened[/u] by the end of 2007?

What will you say if it doesn't happen?

It brings to mind the bold statement of Micaiah “And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the Lord hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.”
(1Kings 22:28 KJVS) Micaiah risked his whole 'prophetic career' on a single prediction. Are you doing the same?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/7/27 4:11Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 philogogos

I was not asking to be antagonistic, just curious.


_________________
Melissa

 2006/7/27 9:05Profile





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