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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Moses in his heart knew the Lord would use him to save Egypt. In his younger years, he killed an Eqyptian guard in an attempt to save his Hebrew brothers and sisters. While Moses was not wrong, his timing was wrong.

Prophets are used by God to speak. All prophets are imperfect apart from Christ, who is Lord. I wonder how many times prophets made mistakes in regards to the messages they heard. When it had come to future prophecies, did any prophet ever really know what they were prophecying? How many times did a prophet stumble before the Word came through perfectly?

Because every prophet is imperfect and we ourselves are imperfect, we cannot judge a prophet as that is God's place, we can only judge his or her prophecies. To reject a person is only foolishness. You might as well reject yourself for are you any better? Truly, we can only reject the message, for how do we know the Lord will not use this person at some time? We don't. The Lord has a way of changing people and molding them into a perfect tool for His use. They may make errors, but the prophecy is not dependent upon the prophet. Rather, it is dependent upon the spirit who gives it. Let us not judge the prophet, but rather, only the prophecy.

Let us all beware of false prophets as the Lord warned many times. However, let us also be careful not to judge to quickly. The word "beware" implies that we should give attention and thought to what they are saying. How can anyone "beware" who has decided to be "ignorant" by not listening?

Paul said this: 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 (KJ)
20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

In that regard, who are we to say who is a prophet, or who is righteous? Are we God? If I say, "I am a prophet", then who is capable of judging this? If I say, "I am righteous," then who is worthy of judging me?

In Christ,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/7/25 11:23Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Love is not easily provoked ...

Quote:
perhaps we could just disagree on these points in love and not call one another "liars" veiled in scripture as you did in reference to bro Ironman “thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:” ...


It was not a veiled accusation of 'liars' and you misjudge me to accuse me so. If you recall your earlier declaration that "God had told the last revival was going to break out in your home church' you will know that I tried to 'cut you some slack' so that you could back-peddle from the categoric statements you were making. Yes, I will challenge self-styled prophets and apostles because this is a public forum and such claims if made here should be challenged here.

You judge me of being mean-spirited. God knows my heart. Neither do I have any ' quest to whack him. Neither do I have 'contempt' for you, nor have I ever had contempt for you. I think you are given to flights of imagination that have lured you into the fantasies of Enoch and into thinking that your imaginings are prophetic.

Quote:
Until i have a report of REVIVAL breaking out at my church this is all that i have to say on this subject for as i afore-statated i heard our Lord say to me "Just Be", and i also don't want to be party to having this thread locked - just wanted to answer your question brother Ron.

This is all I have to say on the subject too. I am content to wait to see if your prophecy was God-inspired or man-inspired unless, of course, you refer to it or to self-claimed prophetic gifts when I will examine and challenge as I think appropriate.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/7/25 13:03Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
This is all I have to say on the subject too. I am content to wait to see if your prophecy was God-inspired or man-inspired unless, of course, you refer to it or to self-claimed prophetic gifts when I will examine and challenge as I think appropriate.



if the prophecy is man inspired then our Lord will have exposed us as liars. if the prophecy is God inspired what shall you do then? i pray we will be able to celebrate our Lord's work together bro

Quote:
You judge me of being mean-spirited. God knows my heart. Neither do I have any ' quest to whack him. Neither do I have 'contempt' for you, nor have I ever had contempt for you. I think you are given to flights of imagination that have lured you into the fantasies of Enoch and into thinking that your imaginings are prophetic.



well bro if i may be honest i do kinda feel like a punching bag :knockedout: anyhow as far as i am concerned the issue of whether i'm a an apostle and prophet is not one that's in question for me. it seems like it's settled as far as your concerned too bro Ron. all i know is what i heard our Lord say to me. i have no witnesses, kinda like when Paul was on the damascus road, everyone saw the light, but only he was blinded and heard the voice so none of those men could vouch for what he was saying.my brother James can bear witness though i doubt you'd value that. perhaps if we were in fellowship it might be different? if i remember right (forgive me if i'm wrong bro) but you said you were a teacher of the word. i take you at your word. i wasn't there when you got your call, i probably wasn't even born yet but i have no reason to believe you would lie about that. i've no reason to lie about this either. what have i to gain? being bashed about and scourned and mistreated? i'm familiar with the life of Paul and of the prophets and if you think that all this is from some fleshly desire for acclaim, you got me all twisted. i'm no masochist or anything weird like that bro. those people went through all kinds of grief, being beaten, scourned, imprisoned, going hungry, naked, without sleep, their lives in constant peril from some guy who wanted to bump them off coz they were raining on their parade...in the end most of them were martyred. there may be some people out there who are into feeling pain like that but bro, i'm not one of them. no sir, my flesh will have NO part of that stuff no way...

when our Lord first told me at the beginning of all this that the only way out was martyrdom i told Him "Lord, that idea stinks, i'm not having that." He didn't respond, but in time as He dealt with me, i saw more and more that it wasn't about me and my strength but that His own grace would be sufficient for all the things which He requires of me and also to endure martyrdom. After that settled in, it was cake. if i was running on some sort of fleshly desire, i'd have jumped ship at the mention of martyrdom in fact, i'd not even have entertained the thought of serving God in any capacity much less these 2. this is no attempt to usurp any sort of authority which is not mine or anything vain like that, Christ said that whoever wishes to be greatest among you should become the least and serve everyone else. do you think my flesh would want such a thing? my flesh wants my respect and reward right now, not later...this aint about that though.it's also not about convincing anyone, unless God himself moves to reveal anything of this to anyone, nothing i say will matter.

the only reason i am where i am is because of our Lord's grace. He's no respecter of persons and whatever anguish and grief i've endured thus far in this walk is because of His own love at work in me coz i'll be real with you, my own fleshly love just wouldn't cut it. i felt led to share this so you know where i'm coming from and that i'm not ashamed or afraid of these heavy mantles or the gospel which our Lord has called me to preach, but like Paul have all confidence in His grace because like that old song goes "twas grace that brought me safe thus far and grace will lead me home"

bro Ron i have kin in london that i'll be visiting at some point, i hope we could fellowship some while i'm over there.

love you and God bless you bro


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/7/25 18:04Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:

Jesus' word to the church at Ephesus Quote: “thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:” (Rev 2:2 KJVS)



I was thinking it would have been nice to know in what way they "tried" the false apostles. For example, IronMan has claimed a "Damascus Road" experience, a miraculous calling. How would the Ephesians have gone about testing IronMan? Would it have been through those who were known to have the gift of discerning spirits? Would it been by what they knew to be the works of an apostle (i.e. miracles, discernment, etc...)? Just wondering out loud.

Another thought here, did the early church believe in any successors to the original twelve apostles and Paul?

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2006/7/25 19:38Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro blake

Quote:
Moses in his heart knew the Lord would use him to save Egypt. In his younger years, he killed an Eqyptian guard in an attempt to save his Hebrew brothers and sisters. While Moses was not wrong, his timing was wrong.



i'm unsure that moses knew all along that God would use him but i know hewas wrong for killing that egyptian. however even though he was wrong, all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose and moses was such a one.

ultimately though, such claims will have to be judged however, not by our own perception/view but by God Himself for us because it is He who calls and appoints men to positions of His choosing. Paul made no bones about his apostleship and he always said who called him to it. God called him and he was of the attitude (i think anyway) God said it and i believe it and will act accordingly. ultimately we of ourselves can't judge who is what unless our Lord does it for us and reveals it to us. anything short of that is presumption.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/7/25 20:21Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron (inthelight)
i'm not claiming a miraculous calling in the sense of what happened to paul, i didn't see a light etc. however i feel there is a likeness in that there were no witnesses, it was just a meeting between paul and God which noone had the inside scoop on, just like when our Lord called me to this office it was me and Him so He's the only one who can vouch for me as a present witness. my brother james can testify to this since we fellowshipped together before our Lord called him to go back to zimbabwe and work for Him there. in that regard our Lord has been most gracious in giving him victory after victory.

i'm sure most people thought that paul had really gone off the deep end. one moment he was breathing murderous threats against Christians then next he was blind for 3 days and converted! if i were there then i'd think he was looney too1 :-P

with paul though, he performed miracles, prophesied, spoke in tongues but i think more than anything he just went through a lot for the sake of the gospel. he was whipped, stoned, imprisoned and so on for the cause of Christ. at present i'm not dealing with any of that, but that will change as our Lord has shown me many times. i suppose though the judging of miracles and such will be a hard thing because we tend to (at least this is what i've observed) to think of supernatural things "what if it's the devil?" or "it's probably the devil" as if our Lord can't do anything mighty. i guess it's easier to think along those lines, but brethren like bro rahman said "what if it's God?" i can see the early church struggling with miracles a bit since it was not a common thing, or that even when Christ performed them they still had a hard time, but we have those testimonies and so many other throught history to look at :-( i guess i feel God doing miracles shouldn't be such a hard thing to grasp?

i guess as far as the trying goes, it would require discernment and also observation of conduct perhaps?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/7/25 20:57Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro mike

Quote:
Just a point of clarification here... was speaking of myself.



oh ok i see, sorry about the mixup. :-)
Quote:

crsschk wrote:


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Farai Bamu

 2006/7/25 20:58Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Prophetic Utterance

Compelled to speak again to this matter and pray to strip back the layers of it's falsities and derisions.

Let me go all the way foolish and invite an examination of where I am finding this not on a level of motivation of the one thinking themselves prophetic, whose interests and intents may be convinced, but where the content and words spoken in The Name of The Lord betray them.

IF one is so utterly assured that they are a Prophet then why pray tell is there so much defending? Would it not seem that NO ONE would dissuade you, not those outside nor even your closet Brethren, is it your detractors or more so your defenders that should be eyed with suspicion, who with a ready acknowledgment of agreement are lending support without question.

The whole problem with this matter of defending is that it cast's doubt instantly upon "your word'. If the thing is true, state it and leave it, why would it need any defending? The "Lord" has spoken as it goes, since when has that which He has ever uttered prophetically ever not come to pass?

More so, where is the "out" in these prophetic utterances? [i]"Unless you .... repent ... turn back, etc.[/i]"

There is every good reason to suspect that the vast majority of those thinking themselves to be prophets are not and that they have not considered the weight of speaking in God's stead with all the seriousness that is required. Again, if this finds trouble with the 'prophet' he ought to have serious doubt's whether or not that which his imagination is telling him, the mixed bag of the natural proclivities and the still undeveloped spiritual disposition is being wrought through him or her has any true ... truth to it. Could it not be that the wires are crossed?

Do you [i]want[/i] to be a 'prophet'? Honestly? Seriously? We have heard that there is this compelling, that it is 'known' and that one could beg off of it if that were possible. If that were so, the 'want' would be a burden and a burning and to over emphasize this again, it wouldn't make a hill of beans difference what anyone has to say. The thing is either true or it is false. It is well time to strip off the false clothing on this matter and bring it to exposure in the light.

What is the bottom line of communicating God's truth whether by teaching, preaching or even prophecy? Is it not to express His understanding to our understanding? And where is this understanding attributed to that which is vague? Mysterious enough as it often is, contrary to the ways of the world and to mere mens thoughts including even the best of saints at times this matter of prophetic utterance cannot be in the realm of possibilities. Anyone can look at the times and guess at what is possible or even likely, that is not prophetic.

Why is it there is no accounting for all the vast, spurious things stated as [i]Ipso facto[/i] that have not come to pass, the 'prophet' has not been held accountable to the requirement of pure honesty and when stripped of his mantle still yet clings to his 'title' deed? Where is the weeping and repentance for things uttered in God's Name that ...

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

No, they just go on and on, puffed up in their vain imaginations, twist their vague prophecies into another version, cast it off to some unknown safe distance far out into the future and think they have washed their hands of the whole matter.

There can be a level of pride that is unexposed in this clamoring for attention like it or not that eeks out in these matters. To be 'known' as a 'prophet,' [i]seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not[/i].

There is far too much credence given in this judicial equivalent of 'innocent until proven guilty' mindset that is not scriptural. I would expect the backslidden to revolt and heap abuse on the prophet who is speaking the very Truth, the very utterances of God through human lips. I would expect the 'heathen' (who are more often more honest than the saints) to rebel against such a 'word' whatever it may be. I would not expect the indwelt believer to have anything but a spiritual acknowledgment to the truth in matters of specific prophecy and believe this is much closer to the sentiment of;

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Someone more knowledgeable expresses it this way;

[b]1Co 14:32 - And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.[/b] Meaning either that the doctrines which the prophets deliver, the explanations they give of passages of Scriptures, the revelations they declare, are subject to the examination, judgment, and censure of other prophets; who have a right to try and judge them, either according to a more clear revelation they may have, or rather according to the sure word of prophecy, the Scriptures of truth; and indeed they are subject to the trial and judgment of the whole church, and therefore ought not to be stiff in their own sentiments, and obstinately persist in them, but cheerfully and readily submit them to be examined, and approved or disapproved by others; and particularly when one that sits by signifies he has something revealed to him, which will better explain, or give further light into what the speaker is upon, he ought to submit and give way to him; and thereby truth may be made manifest and established, instruction, edification, and comfort promoted, and peace and order preserved: or else the sense is, that the spiritual gifts of the prophets, and the inspirations and instincts by which they are acted, and the affections which are excited in them, are subject to themselves, so that they can use, or not use those gifts; though they have the word of the Lord they can forbear speaking, as Jeremy did, for a while, and as the case of Jonah shows; or they can refrain themselves and be silent, and wait till they have proper opportunity of speaking, being not like the prophets of false gods, who are acted by an evil spirit, and observe no order or decorum, but with a sort of fury and madness deliver involuntarily what is suggested to them: but such is not the case of true prophets that are influenced and directed by the Spirit of God, who will give way to one another; one will be silent while the other speaks, and by turns prophesy one after another; and where there is not such a subjection, it is a sign that the Spirit of God is not in them, for the reason that follows.

[b]1Co 14:33 - For God is not the author of confusion[/b],.... Or disorder, or "tumult", as the Syriac renders it; wherefore he does not inspire and excite his prophets to deliver themselves in a disorderly and tumultuous manner, so as to break in one upon another; but when one speaks, the other is silent, or when one has anything revealed to him, and he signifies it in a proper manner, the other stops and gives way to him, and when he has done another succeeds, and so the rest in order, till the whole opportunity is filled up in an orderly and edifying manner; and whatever is contrary to, or breaks in upon such a method, God is not the author of: for he is the author

[b]of peace[/b], harmony, unity, and concord among his prophets and teachers, and so of order, for the former cannot be without the latter; where there is no order in the ministry, there can be no peace among the ministers, nor comfort in the churches; but God is the God of peace, he calls for, requires, disposes, and approves of peace and order among all his people:

[b]as in all churches of the saints[/b]. The Vulgate Latin reads, "as I teach in all", &c. and so read some copies, and may refer to all that is said before; and the sense be, that all the rules he had prescribed concerning speaking with tongues, and prophesying, were not new ones, but such as he had directed to be observed in all churches he was concerned with, and which consisted of holy and good men; or God is the author, not of confusion, but of peace in all the churches; he orders and disposes peace among them, and they attend to it: peace and order, and not confusion and tumult, prevail in all churches that deserve to be called churches of the saints, and therefore were in this to be imitated by the church at Corinth.

John Gill

This whole idea has all kinds of tentacles attached to it that shouldn't be there. Who is a prophet in our most recent history?

Tozer was a 'prophet' and his futuristic casting was not in vague generalities but in what was seen coming into the church in declension amongst other things. (Strange how that is much closer to taking note of both the times and having some spiritual understanding as well)

William Booth who saw ...

[i]On the eve of the 20th Century when Christendom was caught up in euphoria about how the Church would soon take the world for Christ, Booth predicted that the Gospel would not fare well in the new century. Specifically, he prophesied that by the end of the 20th Century, much of the Church would be preaching:

Christianity without Christ

Forgiveness without repentance

Salvation without regeneration

Heaven without Hell[/i]

There are many more examples of prophetic truth uttered quite differently than the comparable crystal ball method so prevalent in this day.

I am neither prophet nor preacher but let my foolishness be known but these '[i]prophetic utterances[/i]' that I will neither defend nor be dissuaded by anyone.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This not by attrition but known, practical fact.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Oh, I know the answer and the conclusion but that changes nothing as far as the truth of Jer 17:9

I could go on endlessly but it seems to me the need for this hour is more plain truth, more examination to the scruple that the Holy Spirit demands of us all in the purity of honesty, of acknowledging our sins and repenting to Him alone Who we have to deal with.

To the prophet who thinks himself so. Examine thyself, judge yourself and allow those more spiritual than yourself whoever they may be to exhort you to a certainty of what so easily can pass through the lips in the Name of the Lord. If you have nothing to worry about, prove it by your silence, make your statement and disappear into the sunset, if it is the Lords doing it will come to pass, if not you have every reason to doubt and question just what spirit, what misunderstanding crossed up in the wires of your mind is telling you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wrote this all out this morning and wish to share a bit more honesty here. Figured I would leave it as it was written to allow some more humility to sink in. This is all generally speaking and just what was on my heart about this matter, that it tends to get the dander up a bit is interesting even though from being caught up in it's various forms in times past lends some of the ... ire to it I am sure. The rest is just from observation and concern both to the hearers and the speakers, it is difficult to stay silent or be particularly 'nice' about it. It just seems to me the seriousness is lost in this day and that an ease of both these types of utterings and the brush off regard towards addressing it equally troubling.

But on to my own humility. That I felt this was [i][u]so[/u] important[/i] this morning I was rushing to get it out here and was chastised by my wife, "I thought you were going in early?" Well, not only did I inwardly react in a half thought of ... never mind, it wasn't exactly pleasant, it didn't take too long to recognize that she was absolutely right and I had no argument, it was the truth and I didn't necessarily want to hear it at first. I later thanked her for nailing me on it. The whole point is that there is much work to be done, much heart piercing acknowledgment that there is still much that ganders attention and that needs repudiating. Still a level of pride that thinks it always has something important to say. Who am I to say anyway? Perhaps it so, perhaps this matter is as important as I think it warrants, perhaps the latter part of all this, is all that I am attempting to convey in this realm of prophetic utterance ... Is this really the Lord or is He really after something entirely different than we think?

And do we want to hear [i]that[/i]?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/7/26 0:28Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

Ever heard the story of the four blind men who tried to describe an elephant?

Most of you probably have, and I dont remember the story word for word, but I can still get the point across.

The idea is that four blind men were each holding a different part of the elephant and described the elephant based on the part that they were holding. And they squabbled and disagreed, but each were right based on what they were holding, but none of them saw the whole picture.

I just though I'd bring it up because thats what yall remind me of. Each of your points may be correct, but to assume that it is the whole picture would be wrong.

:-) Daghan gugma (much love)
Keith


_________________
Keith

 2006/7/26 2:49Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:



InTheLight wrote;
"I was thinking it would have been nice to know in what way they "tried" the false apostles."

Now that's a very good question!

 2006/7/26 10:51Profile





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