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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Prophetic Credentials II

brethren
i am led of God to bring this to the fore once again. i received a most convicting message from our Lord through my brother-in-law James (Jimm here on S.I.) yesterday. it cut very deep through the many layers of false humility which i had built up over the years and exposed all this. while there is some measure of true Humility that our Lord has blessed me with, there is much of my own humility (and other abilities) which i oft operate in which must die that God's own attributes may be shone forth.

this is the word from on High through bro James


[b][color=0000CC]There has been much anticipation in my spirit to write in you in order an account of the mighty working of God at home lately. I have been greeted with a full inbox of issues that need urgent attention, not from me but from God. The Lord has rebuked me concerning fasle humilty saying that part of true humilty is being sure of who you are in God and exactly what He called you to. So according to the word of God, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's
reward." (Mat10:40-41)

Praise the Lord because the release of His wisdom and power is not dependant on us but on His own graces which He gives freely to all who seek Him in Christ.The Father of mercies has given us Jesus so that we may dispel in our lives and in the world those things which are not from Him, such things are lies and have no place in us and cannot and will not abide the truth. May the eyes of our
hearts be opened to see Jesus in all that we do and all that is with our inner-most beings. God wants to be at the center of our consciouness and from there the rivers of waters will flow. Nothing glib or superficial will release the Truth of God in such a abundance that transformation and renewal are propageted by its flow. We of all people must be lovers of the Truth, hearers
of the Truth and above all expressions of the Truth.

The Truth is the Word of God, who we know and receive as God. God is manifest to us in His Son Jesus so that we may see and receive the Word in our hearts and minds and being One who can be expressed in a human vessel so that when we receive the Word we can release the words of life in the same magnitude,conviction and authority as He who is the Word is releasing it. This is not
because we are producing something similar or comparable to the Word of God (God forbid) but it is because He who was in the begining when the God head released the word. "let there be light..." now abides in us and has by no means lost His authenticity and divine creative abilty which calls those things which are not as if they are.[/color][/b]


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Farai Bamu

 2006/7/22 12:40Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Come forth Ye apostles and prophets!

brethren
the issue at hand is of knowing and acknowledging one's office (for others role or responsibility)be it, apostle, prophet, preacher, teacher or evangelist and more importantly conducting onself accordingly in obedience to our Father. Some members here have received revelations from God and shared them and quickly noted they aren't prophets (for example)Granted not all are prophets or apostles and so on but we each need to know our office/role. Some of those people who have said "i'm not a prophet or anything" are indeed prophets and know so but are afraid of or don't want to deal with the grief/drama which comes with the work. if you are such a one, acknowledge it, God will give us grace enough to do what HE requires of us regardless of circumstance. Since we are a body which should function in unison in Spirit, we ought to know what the offices/roles of our brethren are also. there has never been (or at least i've not seen) any issue if someone says "i'm a preacher" or "i'm an evangelist" but it seems to me most people who acknowledge and say "i'm an apostle" or "i'm a prophet" catch all kinds of grief. most are accused of trying to win acclaim for themselves and indeed some are. this makes it hard for those of us who are called to such.usually when God does this there are no witnesses so we look foolish saying "i'm a prophet" coz people then say "says who?" or take issue with it all. perhaps part of our aversion to the prophet is that there is no telling what God will say through him or her about what He requires of us. every time our Lord has sent forth prophets it has been to preach the message of repentance or judgement is coming. a restoration always comes at some point after that but to get to that point, there has to be either repentance or judgement first. As far as our assumption at times that the prophet seeks acclaim so we reject him or her,i've found that such sentiments usually stem from knowing that if that were me, i'd be looking to glorify myself also.

The word says whoever receives a prophet/righteous man in the name of such will receive the corresponding reward. it seems to me that if one walks up to me and says "i'm a righteous man" or "i'm a prophet" and i take him at his word i'd get the reward which comes with it. whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen. however the word says also that whoever receives such receives Christ and whoever receives Christ receives the Father. Brethren the reward is a small thing but this receiving of Christ and thus the Father is where it's all at! To receive a prophet, an apostle or whatever is to acknowledge the authority in which that person speaks and this is also to acknowledge God Himself speaking through that person because without God at work or moving in that person, nothing will happen.that way when we hear the person say "thus sayeth the Lord" we listen and take note and not do what Israel did so many times before and reap the reward of that... There is a gravity which we must reckon with concerning our God and when He speaks because He expects His decrees to be followed and so we dare not reject anything He says or treat it flippantly lest we disobey God, fail to glorify Him and receive whatever blessimgs come with that (His glory is our benefit) and instead reap the judgement which comes with the rejection of His word.

Some would say "none of the prophets in the bible said they were prophets" scripture doesn't say that they said so but i don't think they were silent about it even though their conduct was Godly. they talked the talk and walked the walk too. Paul made no bones about his apostleship which was because God called him to it and he also walked the walk and people took him seriously enough to think that just maybe God is speaking through this guy.

For those who are called to be apostles and prophets, acknowledge your calling and don't be afraid of it because God called you to it. At the end of the day His opinion will be the one which determines everything. Rejection comes with the work but it is not you who is being rejected (as i came to find out) but God Himself since He is the one who called you, appointed you and sent you forth. God's grace is sufficient to see His work done in us and through us, if that weren't the case, we'd be dead in the water...

brethren these 2 callings/offices/roles are dear to me because our Lord has called me to both. i say this not to seek acclaim but because God said this is what i am so i can't duck and dodge the responsibilities thereof any more. it is also an exhortation to those out there who are called to these almost forgotten offices/callings/role to accept and acknowledge them and not be ashamed or afraid but to go forth in all boldness for our Lord requires that we play our roles. our Father requires that we do what He asks to glorify His name in and through the body of Christ in edifying, exhorting, instructing and so on. This is not to downplay the other 3 offices/callings/roles but to highlight that all 5 need to be firing on all cylinders.

Lord your will be done to your glory. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/7/22 18:39Profile
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Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 False Humility

Brethren
now that our Lord has had me come out in the open about what He has called me to, i'm led to speak on this issue of false humility. This has crippled the Church. Rather than be plain about what we are called to, we keep it on the low because we don't want to be perceived as seeking acclaim. that's what i believed until our Lord showed me that i had been acting not out of Humility but out of fear and disobedience. i was fearful of the drama which would surely come from saying that i am an apostle and prophet of our Lord and sought to save myself this grief by not saying anything about it. i was out to save my own skin at the expense of God's glory! talk about heading down the wrong road...i'd perverted Humility and turned it into humility, or rather operated out of my own humility in a self-serving,glorifying and gratifying manner to justify my quietness on this thereby allowing me to get off easy. of course God will see His work done by His Spirit else it would have been over for me.

let us not pretend to be humble or operate out of our own humility as opposed to true Humility. let us not use this false crutch to let ourselves off the hook or keep from rocking the boat when we know we ought to sink it. the end result of this is judgement from on high for disobedience. Let us not speak falsly or flippantly either because this will result in the same. Let us speak as we are led by God to the Glory of His name which is our reason for being and the benefit of us His children.

to God be the glory foever. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/7/22 19:27Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Come forth Ye apostles and prophets!

Hi IRONMAN,

Since earlier days here and even our own ... seemingly at odds with each other over this matter of prophets... Just want to say I have come to appreciate and recognize the change in your ... perspective as it has evolved. Just noting that change and hope that many of us are not only willing but have been changed through all that goes on through our coming together to work through matters. My own perspective is and has often been altered and adjusted, been put to the challenge, another consideration, another contemplation.

And the proverbial ... [i]but[/i] :-)

Quote:
Since we are a body which should function in unison in Spirit, we ought to know what the offices/roles of our brethren are also. there has never been (or at least i've not seen) any issue if someone says "i'm a preacher" or "i'm an evangelist" but it seems to me most people who acknowledge and say "i'm an apostle" or "i'm a prophet" catch all kinds of grief. most are accused of trying to win acclaim for themselves and indeed some are. this makes it hard for those of us who are called to such.usually when God does this there are no witnesses so we look foolish saying "i'm a prophet" coz people then say "says who?" or take issue with it all. perhaps part of our aversion to the prophet is that there is no telling what God will say through him or her about what He requires of us. every time our Lord has sent forth prophets it has been to preach the message of repentance or judgement is coming. a restoration always comes at some point after that but to get to that point, there has to be either repentance or judgement first. As far as our assumption at times that the prophet seeks acclaim so we reject him or her,i've found that such sentiments usually stem from knowing that if that were me, i'd be looking to glorify myself also.


Still think a great deal of what is taken issue with is the definition of what a prophet [u]now[/u] is, in this day. Apologize for the length here but for some consideration;

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

[b]1Co 14:1-40[/b] -
Two Verses in this Chapter 14 demand a little attention (1Co_14:1-2 — the 3rd and the 6th (1Co_14:3; 1Co_14:6). Verse 3 (1Co_14:3) is the effect, or rather the quality, of that which a prophet says, and not a definition. He edifies, he encourages, he comforts, by speaking. Nevertheless these words shew the character of what he said. Prophecy is in no wise simply the revelation of future events, although prophets as such have revealed them. A prophet is one who is so in communication with God as to be able to communicate His mind. A teacher instructs according to that which is already written, and so explains its import. But, in communicating the mind of God to souls under grace, the prophet encouraged and edified them. With regard to Verse 6 (1Co_14:6, it is plain that coming with tongues (by the use of which the Corinthians like children, loved to shine in the assembly) he that so spoke, edified no one, for he was not understood. Perhaps he did not understand himself, but was the unintelligent instrument of the Spirit, whilst having the powerful impression of the fact that God spoke by his means, so that in the Spirit he felt that he was in communication with God, although his understanding was unfruitful. In any case no one could speak for the edification of the assembly unless he communicated the mind of God.

Of such communication the apostle distinguishes two kinds — revelation and knowledge. The latter supposes a revelation already given, of which some one availed himself by the Holy Ghost for the good of the flock. He then points out the gifts which were respectively the means of edifying in these two ways. It is not that the two latter terms (1Co_14:6) are the equivalents of the two former; but the two things here spoken of as edifying the church were accomplished by means of these two gifts. There might be"prophecy" without its being absolutely a new revelation, although there was more in it than knowledge. It might contain an application of the thoughts of God, an address on the part of God to the soul, to the conscience, which would be more than knowledge, but which would not be a new revelation. God acts therein without revealing a new truth, or a new fact. "Knowledge," or "doctrine," teaches truths, or explains the word, a thing very useful to the assembly; but in it there is not the direct action of the Spirit in application, and thus not the direct manifestation of the presence of God to men in their own conscience and heart. When any one teaches, he who is spiritual profits by it; when one prophesies, even he who is not spiritual may feel it, he is reached and judged; and it is the same thing with the Christian's conscience. Revelation, or knowledge, is a perfect division and embraces everything. Prophecy, and doctrine, are in intimate connection with the two; but prophecy embraces other ideas, so that this division does not exactly answer to the first two terms.

The apostle insists largely on the necessity for making oneself understood, whether one speaks, or sings, or prays. He desires — and the remark is of all importance in judging men's pretensions to the Spirit — that the understanding be in exercise. He does not deny that they might speak with tongues without the understanding being at all in it — a thing of evident power and utility when persons were present who understood no other language, or whose natural language it was. But, in general, it was an inferior thing when the Spirit did not act upon, and therefore by means of, the understanding in him who spoke. Communion between souls in a common subject, through the unity of the Spirit, did not exist when he who spoke did not understand what he said. The individual speaking did not himself enjoy, as from God, what he communicated to others. If others did not understand it either, it was child's play to utter words without meaning to the hearers. But the apostle desired to understand himself that which he said, although he spoke in many tongues; so that it was not jealousy on his part. He spoke more foreign tongues, by the gift of the Holy Ghost, than they all. But his soul loved the things of God — loved to receive truth intelligently from Him — loved to hold intelligent intercourse with others; and he would rather say five words with his understanding, than ten thousand without it in an unknown tongue.

What a marvellous power, what a manifestation of the presence of God — a thing worthy of the deepest attention — and, at the same time, what superiority to all carnal vanity, to the lustre reflected upon the individual by means of gifts — what moral power of the Spirit of God, where love saw nothing in these manifestations of power in gift but instruments to be used for the good of the assembly and of souls! It was the practical force of that love, to the exercise of which, as being superior to gifts, he exhorted the faithful. It was the love and the wisdom of God directing the exercise of His power for the good of those whom He loved. What a position for a man! What simplicity is imparted by the grace of God to one who forgets self in humility and love, and what power in that humility! The apostle confirms his argument by the effect that would be produced on strangers who might come into the assembly, or on unenlightened Christians, if they heard languages spoken which no one understood: they would think them mad. Prophecy, reaching their conscience, would make them feel that God was there — was present in the assembly of God.

Gifts were abundant in Corinth. Having regulated that which concerned moral questions, the apostle in the second place regulates the exercise of those gifts. Every one came with some manifestation of the power of the Holy Ghost, of which they evidently thought more than of conformity to Christ. Nevertheless the apostle acknowledges in it the power of the Spirit of God, and gives rules for its exercise. Two or three might speak with tongues, provided there was an interpreter, so that the assembly might be edified. And this was to be done one at a time, for it appears they even spoke several at once. In the same way as to the prophets: two or three might speak, the others would judge if it really came from God. For, if it were given to them of God, all might prophesy; but only one at a time, that all might learn — a dependence always good for the most gifted prophets — and that all might be comforted. The spirits of the prophets (that is to say, the impulse of the power in the exercise of gifts) were subject to the guidance of the moral intelligence which the Spirit bestowed on the prophets. They were, on God's part, masters of themselves in the use of these gifts, in the exercise of this marvellous power which wrought in them. It was not a divine fury, as the pagans said of their diabolical inspiration, which carried them away; for God could not be the author of confusion in the assembly, but of peace. In a word we see that this power was committed to man in his moral responsibility; an important principle, which is invariable in the ways of God. God saved man by grace, when he had failed in his responsibility; but all that He has committed to man, whatever may be the divine energy of the gift, man holds as responsible to use it for the glory of God, and consequently for the good of others and especially for the assembly.

Women were to be silent in the assembly: it was not permitted to them to speak. They were to remain in obedience and not to direct others. The law moreover held the same language. It would be a shame to hear them speak in public. If they had had questions to ask, they might inquire of their husbands at home.

With all their gifts, the word did not come out from the Corinthians, nor had it come unto them only; they ought to submit to the universal order of the Spirit in the assembly. If they pretended to be led by the Spirit, let them acknowledge (and this would prove it,) that the things which the apostle wrote to them were the commandments of the Lord: a very important assertion; a responsible and serious position of this wonderful servant of God.

What a mixture of tenderness, of patience, and of authority! The apostle desires that the faithful should come to the truth and to order, conducted by their own affections; not fearing, if necessary for their good, to avail himself of an authority without appeal, as speaking directly from God — an authority which God would justify if the apostle was forced unwillingly to use it. If any were ignorant that he wrote by the Spirit with the authority of God, it was ignorance indeed; let such be given up to their ignorance. Spiritual and simple men would be delivered from such pretensions. Those who were really filled with the Spirit would acknowledge that what the apostle wrote came immediately from God, and was the expression of His wisdom, of that which became Him: for often there may be the recognition of divine or even human wisdom when it is found, where there was not the ability to find it, nor, if it were perceived in part, the power to set it forth with authority. Meanwhile the man of pretension, reduced to this place, would find the place profitable, and that which he needed.

We shall also observe here the importance of this assertion of the apostle's with regard to the inspiration of the epistles. That which he taught for the details even of the order of the assembly, was so really given of God, came so entirely from God, that they were the commandments of the Lord. For doctrine we have, at the end of the Epistle to the Romans, the same declaration that it was by means of prophetic writings that the gospel was disseminated among the nations.

The apostle resumes his instructions by saying, that they should desire to prophesy, not forbid to speak with tongues, and that all should be done with order and propriety.

John Darby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
The word says whoever receives a prophet/righteous man in the name of such will receive the corresponding reward. [b]it seems to me that if one walks up to me and says "i'm a righteous man" or "i'm a prophet" and i take him at his word i'd get the reward which comes with it. whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen.[/b] however the word says also that whoever receives such receives Christ and whoever receives Christ receives the Father. Brethren the reward is a small thing but this receiving of Christ and thus the Father is where it's all at! To receive a prophet, an apostle or whatever is to acknowledge the authority in which that person speaks and this is also to acknowledge God Himself speaking through that person because without God at work or moving in that person, nothing will happen.that way when we hear the person say "thus sayeth the Lord" we listen and take note and not do what Israel did so many times before and reap the reward of that... There is a gravity which we must reckon with concerning our God and when He speaks because He expects His decrees to be followed and so we dare not reject anything He says or treat it flippantly lest we disobey God, fail to glorify Him and receive whatever blessimgs come with that (His glory is our benefit) and instead reap the judgement which comes with the rejection of His word.



The way you have couched this is quite problematic brother. To take someone at their word, who comes in their [i]own[/i] name (or even in the Name of the Lord for that matter)as a precursor to [i]"whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen"[/i] is a dangerous precedent and very much the problem with so many Christians not putting things to the test, but to first accept, than sort latter, if at all. We are full circle back to being good Bereans as well as thinking spirtualy and if I could term it this way, having some spiritual intuitiveness.

Had a rather peculiar dream last week and may the brother forgive me here for divulging this by use of his name, it was a dream after all... The setting was some gathering of ... SermonIndex'ers (!) that is kind of vague, outdoors I seem to recall. Let me give this caveat of clarification here first. I am not 'interpreting' this, just stating it as it came across, would hate for anyone to run off with it... The bulk of the saints were having some form of conversation over many things, not unlike this forum (the forum come to life in the physical?)Some of it seemed rather pleasant, some heated and hostile, some ...silly... kind of on the surface level, chit-chat, that sort of thing. For whatever reason was just detached from it all, off alone, kind of watching it from afar. Someone came up close by and Robert Wurtz (our brother here) had said just a couple of things that were of his usual well articulated and heartfelt candor to him... But the thing that stuck and struck though it really is of no surprise.... While he was standing there near me, without saying a word to me personally, I could not only feel, but know that he could see right through me. Better yet, that fact was both comforting and welcome, an easy transparency, sins, failings and all.

The whole point here is just that character is one thing, spiritual character, quite another.

False humility is a great problem as well and agree, just as well rejection and misunderstanding is not confined to the 'prophet' nor does it necessarily 'prove' anything ...

[i]The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.[/i] Mat 10:24,25


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Mike Balog

 2006/7/23 10:54Profile
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 God is growing us up

bro Mike
you wrote:

Quote:
Since earlier days here and even our own ... seemingly at odds with each other over this matter of prophets... Just want to say I have come to appreciate and recognize the change in your ... perspective as it has evolved. Just noting that change and hope that many of us are not only willing but have been changed through all that goes on through our coming together to work through matters. My own perspective is and has often been altered and adjusted, been put to the challenge, another consideration, another contemplation.



bro this is the beauty of fellowship. our Lord brings us together and rubs us against one another to get the dross off and make us shine like diamonds (as bro Rahman would say) :-D i praise our Lord and thank Him for this dealing in which His wisdom is poured into us and His Holiness and Righteousness is wrought in us to the praise and the glory of His Most Holy name. AMEN.

bro Mike i will say that from the first when our Lord called me to be a prophet, the only thing i knew of this was the fortelling of the future.i suppose that is the contemporary view? i think that's the thing most people think of. however as our Lord dealt with me, i found that most of the time i was sharing in His anguish, joy, and anger. On occasion He would show me things concerning the future but i found that this office has to do with the mind and heart of God and the communication thereof to us His children. Sometimes it has to do with future events. summed up as this in your post:

Quote:
A prophet is one who is so in communication with God as to be able to communicate His mind.



bro Mike you also said

Quote:
The way you have couched this is quite problematic brother. To take someone at their word, who comes in their own name (or even in the Name of the Lord for that matter)as a precursor to "whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen" is a dangerous precedent and very much the problem with so many Christians not putting things to the test, but to first accept, than sort latter, if at all. We are full circle back to being good Bereans as well as thinking spirtualy and if I could term it this way, having some spiritual intuitiveness.



again the beauty of fellowship at work, i should have qualified that statement and i'm glad you caught that. i did mean what i said about taking the person at their word and if there is truth remains to me seen. now when that one speaks, THEN we can put their word to the test to see if it is from God or not. And i agree with you that this precisely is the big problem ; we are not dilligent concerning this. then on the flip side there is the tendancy to write everyone off who says that they are a prophet as being a false one, this is equally bad. i guess to clarify, take the person at his word and when he/she speaks test the word, have God try it for you. we should also not lean on our own understanding so much prayerful consideration is needed. if the word is from God then receive it, if it is not, reject it.

Quote:
False humility is a great problem as well and agree, just as well rejection and misunderstanding is not confined to the 'prophet' nor does it necessarily 'prove' anything ...



i suppose i am somewhat partial to the prophet :-P however like i said in the last post (or at least i should have or think i did :-? )i'm not trying to downplay the other offices but i am focusing in on the apostle and prophet because that is what i am led of God to do.i have no experience really in the other offices, it would be good if representatives of the other 3 offices would share also i think.

bro you and me don't talk much on these boards so if i'm wrong here please forgive me. it seems to me you oft respond with quotes from other theolgians. is that because they say what you would have said? i guess i'd like to hear more of what our Lord has revealed to you personally since i kinda know you from these boards. if our Lord leads you to do so then that's cool, i was just curious.

love you much bro


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Farai Bamu

 2006/7/23 18:00Profile
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Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

My apologies, I didn't get to read through your whole post, it was rather long.

Quote:

crsschk wrote:

[b]1Co 14:1-40[/b] -
Two Verses in this Chapter 14 demand a little attention (1Co_14:1-2 — the 3rd and the 6th (1Co_14:3; 1Co_14:6). Verse 3 (1Co_14:3) is the effect, or rather the quality, of that which a prophet says, and not a definition. He edifies, he encourages, he comforts, by speaking. Nevertheless these words shew the character of what he said. Prophecy is in no wise simply the revelation of future events, although prophets as such have revealed them. A prophet is one who is so in communication with God as to be able to communicate His mind. A teacher instructs according to that which is already written, and so explains its import.



Do you suggest that ony the prophetic are in communication with God and are able to communicate His mind?

Dont take that as a hostile question. I just dont want to assume that you implied something if it was not what you intended to imply.

Note that the 5-fold ministry is only needed, "UNTIL we all attain to the untiy of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:13 emphasis added.

So according to this verse and others like it, there will be a day that we will reach the "measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." When that day comes, according to Eph 4:13 we will no longer need these offices, and my reason for thinking that is because we will all be able to function in all of the offices if the Spirit may so lead us, being in the fullness of Christ, Who walked in all of the offices. For example if every one was capeable of hearing from God as well or better than the prophets, there would be no need for them. Some of that is my own speculation based on the verse. It bears witness with my spirit though.

One thing that I have seen throughout different ministries is that though people my be in the same office, they do not always minister and function the same way.

Be Blessed


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Keith

 2006/7/24 4:26Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Contemplation

Quote:
Do you suggest that ony the prophetic are in communication with God and are able to communicate His mind?



Oh absolutely the opposite, actually there can seem to be an underlining sense that some who believe themselves to be 'prophets' believe this of themselves.

Think the whole of what has been couched in the language of "Five-fold" ministry is an overdone extrapolation and needs a re-examination. It does seem to come back to that which is descriptive over that of 'position' or title.

Something both puzzling and troubling that the emphesis has been placed on to use the modern parlance, '[i]What is [u]my[/u] S.H.A.P.E[/i]'...
Where is the office of being put on a shelf for a season, or the office of suffering, the title of persecution, the gift of ... not speaking and being in adverse situations, financialy destitute, living under daily threat or living with an unbelieivng family and suffering quietly. What tends to get overlooked in this whole matter is the emphesis on "me".

Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/7/24 8:31Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Contemplation

My, shut the guy up for awhile and all of a sudden he is full of opinion ... ;-)

Wrote this out yesterday IRONMAN and it was just ridiculously hot in this neck of the woods, the brain melting away along with the thoughts...

With a few adjustments.

Something Ron (Philologos)stated a bit back comes instantly to mind... That the 'offices' are more descriptive than titles if I am recalling that correctly. (Redundant, I realize)

Best I can tell, there are no more 'apostles' at least in the truest sense of the word, of course it gets muddy depending on what is poured into that meaning, especially in our day.

Quote:
bro you and me don't talk much on these boards so if i'm wrong here please forgive me. it seems to me you oft respond with quotes from other theolgians. is that because they say what you would have said?.



Generally speaking, yes. A better articulation usually. Just as often though, if not more often, it is something that I am yet musing on, rather than a conclusion.
Quote:
i guess i'd like to hear more of what our Lord has revealed to you personally since i kinda know you from these boards. if our Lord leads you to do so then that's cool, i was just curious



Could fill a number of pages here to answer that ... Actually I probably already have! :-)

Seriously, I guess I don't tend to look at things in that way or express them in that manner. Still am of a mindset that is quite distrusting of the muddy mix that is evident in sorting through the natural from the spiritual, the things 'revealed' by the Lord through the Holy Spirit... That is to say that a great deal is held in abeyance, is inconclusive, that there is a '[i]knowing[/i]' that suppercedes even our own particular understanding and even defies a proper articulation. It's practically speaking, underneath, deep within the soul and I do find much better ... pieces if you will of it drawn out in a lot of these old dead guy's who are still speaking...

It has grown and changed especially over the course of the last 3 years here and why the tendencies is to burst out with exclamations sometimes of the value and import of what all is to be gleaned and contemplated from this wonder of wonders here. SermonIndex is what it is by way of the enormity of long lost Christian ... [i]thinking[/i], that which seems to have been so done away with in this modern era. There is so much to truly ponder and muse on to come to conclusions, to side with a denominational mindset or theological construct ... I must say it again; I am finding that this life with the Lord is nothing as I had imagined it years ago, is full of wonderful paradox, opposites, seemingly contrary ways and mannerisms, the simplistic is so often more evidently true that "[i]Thou knowest[/i]" is much more of a comfort than to have to have an answer for everything.

I do think there is a healthy curiosity that compels us to search after and find out the meaning of things. At the same time I think that we as Christians can be at odds with what the Lord may be truly after in and through us by being distracted after matters that He has no interest in revealing to us.

If anything the Lord is 'telling' or showing this poor fool is that the ultimate and foremost matter to be dealt with is the heart, the transparency thereof, the exposed nature that [i]is[/i] by way of a changed disposition and that alone is enough to deal with. Seems everything comes through this realm of coming clean in honesty, in Spirit and in truth, the sword that the Jesus weilded was to the core of matters in all that He said, taught and exemplified. To come to that place in prayer and in outworking is both a comfort and a challenge. On the one hand there is a blessed giving up in attempting to produce ones self into principals and 'oughts' and 'shoulds' and on the other the work required to give up that which needs to be given up. There was some talk on passivity that is not what is meant by surrender. Conforming the mind, casting down evil imaginations, [i]doing[/i] 'good', [i]working out[/i] your own salvation, all require effort. But coming to a place where you realize that hiding is the definition of stupidity, that surrender of ones will is not a detriment but a blessing, that reliance on the Holy Spirit isn't a proscription but a present necessity ... Oh, there is a blessed relaxation that can steal away when we cease striving in our own strength, even in the midst of taxing demands in whatever the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Another needed 'revelation' that would be criminal not to mention. There is still the evil heart to deal with, the temptations that come and sadly enough even still ensnare. The change is much more now ... less ... of failing God and more of grieving Him. I picked up on a sentiment from Oswald Chambers recently where he expressed that as humans we are oft 'wanting' punishment that measures out some sort of equality to that sin which we have committed and actually can feed our pride (Will have to dig that out to be sure I am repeating it correctly). What seemed to stick is that often times the punishment expected is to have no practical, evident punishment whatsoever.

It could be said the punishment is forgiveness, sometimes that is more lasting and demanding, recognizing that kind of love ... how can one go on sinning against that?

Much yet to learn, how thankful for another day to be molded into that Image.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/7/24 9:21Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re: Contemplation

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Oh absolutely the opposite, actually there can seem to be an underlining sense that some who believe themselves to be 'prophets' believe this of themselves.



:-) That's why I asked. I didn't want to misunderstand you. I notice how people can argue back and forth making assumptions based on what they perceived the other person to be saying. And that often causes people to argue the same point without evening knowing that they actually agree.


_________________
Keith

 2006/7/24 11:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Ironman's

Quote:
it seems to me that if one walks up to me and says "i'm a righteous man" or "i'm a prophet" and i take him at his word i'd get the reward which comes with it. whether or not there is truth in what was just said remains to me seen.



Jesus' word to the church at Ephesus
Quote:
“thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”
(Rev 2:2 KJVS)



Personally, I reject Ironman's claims to apostleship and prophethood.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/7/24 12:17Profile





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