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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Every time I hear a person speak in an unknown tongue, be it a different language such as Russian, or what some say is Angle talk, The Spirit checks me and tells me watch the people speaking, what do you see. So far all I see is a pride in what they are doing.


If this is the kind of judgment you make, I prefer not to discuss these things with you.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/14 17:13Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

This is not my judgment Ron, it is the word of God. If we look at scripture with a mind to the Holy Spirit teaching us truth about Christ, which Christ said He would send to us for this very purpose, we see that tongues have been since the 1800's and 1900's the most divisive doctrine in the Body of Christ.

It also detracts from The Truth of Christ In us, who has done the change in our nature by His Nature being born again in us. Jesus spoke always, every place He went with understanding and truth. The Holy Spirit will be the same Teacher of this truth and understanding. He even teach us things we don't understand. With the truth of scripture Paul said as all know in this particular subject, "I would rather speak 5 works with understanding that 10,000 in an unknown tongue, unknown tongue is the very center of this discussion. Unless we can translate the language being spoken, it is said, "keep silent in the churches".

I am sorry you think this is a judgment on my part. If it is my judgment then I am in very thin Ice and in and area that God will change very aggressively and I will repent. The Holy Spirit keeps revealing truth and building upon the truth that Tongues are different languages of the Earth that God dispersed at the tower of Babble and bringing all of us into one mind until we all come to the truth and using the gift of tongues (Language interpretation and speaking different languages to reveal the Gospel of Christ in you to the world) of bringing us together in Christ, the gift of tongues, that is interpretation of languages and give the truth of Jesus Christ to all that will hear, no matter their nationality or language. The gift is for the unsaved, not the saved to be used for self.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


In the Unity of the Faith, Christ in us: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/14 22:03Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

hmmm...Well I have just read through the thread form beginning to end and I must say, I feel like it is on a carosel...round and round and round. Interresting points are being presented though.

Well I hesitate to say anything at all because I sense doing so is like standing between two companies of soldiers shooting at each other.

Oh well,
Well, this is comming from a person who prays in tongues daily. Though I cannot help but to imagine that if any of you were in the same room as me when I am praying in tungues every one of you would think me insane.

When I pray in tongues it builds up my spirit. How can I explain it? Well first of all, if you have never prayed in tongues you will not be able to fully grasp this, but I feel my inner man strengthen. Have you ever been in a church service and the message being preached is so good that your spirit gets excited and encouraged and you walk out of church energized and refreshed. That is how I feel whenever I pray in tongues. I may be sitting at my computer like I am now and just say a few words in tongues and my spirt just jumps in excitement and I have a sensation similar to that of water being poured over dry skin. Not that my spirit is dry, but that tongues brings a refreshing. When I pray in tongues, it is like my spirit is in a gym and is working out. You know how your body feels when you just come out of the gym, bulging? Without the soreness though.

I have prayed for many things in my life using my tongues prayer language and seen the miraculous happen.

I also find that praying in tongues stirrs up the prophetic within me. Being on the mission field I get the opportunity to pray for people after I hold a church service. I like to minister out of the prophetic when praying for people, because it actualy gives understanding to the person being prayed for rather than rambling off in tongues and saying nothing in english. Not that it is bad, but their minds need something to either encorage it or correct it. Sometimes I will lay hands on someone and have absolutely no word to give them or nothing about their life to pray for. So I will just pray in tongues and it stirrs up the Spirit, and God will show me something to either tell them or pray for. The prophetic is not just foretelling but also forth-telling and bringing correction.

I will admitt, I do not understand what I am praying in tongues nor does it sound like an earthly language, though God often reveals to my spirit what it is that I am praying for.

There are several diversities of tongues. Not every time you speek in tongues there is going to be an interpretation or understanding of it, that is why Paul was correcting the Corinthians, because they went so far as to preach in tongues. Though he does go to say that speaking in tongues is not wrong, for he claimed to speak in tongues more than them all.

Well, I've stuck my head in the path of somone's argument.

Be blessed and encouraged.


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Keith

 2006/7/15 2:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

WorldView's

Quote:
There are several diversities of tongues. Not every time you speek in tongues there is going to be an interpretation or understanding of it, that is why Paul was correcting the Corinthians, because they went so far as to preach in tongues.


I wonder why you express it quite like this? The impression I get from 1 Corinthians is not that they were preaching but that they were exercising public 'other tongues' without interpretation, and in such a self-assertive manner that they dominated the meeting and gave no opportunity for the body to minister through its many members.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/15 5:40Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

?? That is basically what I said, but I was a little more specific about it. Imagine you attend a church where the pastor just gets up on stage to preach and for an hour long speaks only in tongues and with no interpretation and then at the end says, "Got it? Amen yall be blessed now." That is an example of the kind of stuff that was going. Is that an exact example? No, because I wasn't there, but the idea is that they went around speaking in tongues to each other as if people somehow understood it.

I hope that clarifies what I meant.


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Keith

 2006/7/15 6:30Profile









 Re: About tongues, again ....

Hi philologos,

Quote:
120 tongues speakers would more than be sufficient for all the language groups referred to in Acts 2:9-11. The list actually comprises less than 20 people groups.

I'd like to draw your attention to verse 5 (Acts 2, NKJV)

And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, [u]from every nation under heaven[/u].

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, [b]because[/b] [u]everyone [b]heard them speak[/b] in his own language[/u].

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

8 "And how [is it that] we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?


[b]4[/b] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (KJV and NKJV)


I'm willing to believe they were actually speaking the earthly languages of those that were 'hear'ing in their own language, but my original point was simply that perhaps God gave the interpretation of 'other' tongues, to those who heard, in the same way as there is an intellectual [i]disconnect[/i] between the tongues given in church meetings, and the interpretation by someone which a gift of interpretation.

The [i]connection[/i] is through the Holy Spirit, by whom we are one in Christ, and each individual hearing an interpretation, makes his own personal response to what God has spoken to his own spirit (mind, soul, being...).

I appreciate your having engaged on this topic, as it seems there are church groups in North America being encouraged to [i]worship[/i] the Holy Spirit.

Also, there are whole congregations being encouraged to 'copy' someone who is professing they speak in tongues... I mean literally almost by rote, to [i]try[/i] to speak in tongues.

It may be that tongues are given a place of prominence in some churches, which was never intended by the Lord and is unscriptural. Other 'unscriptural' practices make it difficult for an ordinary believer to work out how to please the Lord on the point of tongues, and also, how to remain acceptable within the context of their local fellowship - which may be the best they have available.

 2006/7/15 6:36









 Re: About tongues, again....

Worldview said:

Quote:
When I pray in tongues it builds up my spirit. How can I explain it? Well first of all, if you have never prayed in tongues you will not be able to fully grasp this,

I think this is true.

Quote:
but I feel my inner man strengthen. Have you ever been in a church service and the message being preached is so good that your spirit gets excited and encouraged and you walk out of church energized and refreshed. That is how I feel whenever I pray in tongues. I may be sitting at my computer like I am now and just say a few words in tongues and my spirt just jumps in excitement and I have a sensation similar to that of water being poured over dry skin. Not that my spirit is dry, but that tongues brings a refreshing. When I pray in tongues, it is like my spirit is in a gym and is working out. You know how your body feels when you just come out of the gym, bulging? Without the soreness though.

I have prayed for many things in my life using my tongues prayer language and seen the miraculous happen.

I also find that praying in tongues stirrs up the prophetic within me. Being on the mission field I get the opportunity to pray for people after I hold a church service. I like to minister out of the prophetic when praying for people, because it actualy gives understanding to the person being prayed for rather than rambling off in tongues and saying nothing in english. Not that it is bad, but their minds need something to either encorage it or correct it.

Tongues or not, this is a very helpful comment. Having been prayed for many times, with no prior or following discussion about what I was seeking the Lord for, or, what the Lord had given the pray-er.... leaves the mind with nothing to believe into, unless the Lord has given a very clear word, or, it has come through the prayer of the pray-er.

Quote:
Sometimes I will lay hands on someone and have absolutely no word to give them or nothing about their life to pray for. So I will just pray in tongues and it stirrs up the Spirit, and God will show me something to either tell them or pray for.

Amen.

Quote:
The prophetic is not just foretelling but also forth-telling and bringing correction.

I will admitt, I do not understand what I am praying in tongues nor does it sound like an earthly language, though God often reveals to my spirit what it is that I am praying for.

This last point has never happened to me, but I often feel sure I've 'got through' in prayer, when praying in tongues, and I think it is helpful to understand these aspects of using tongues.

I once heard a man of considerable intellect explain that when he spoke in tongues, it gave his mind a rest.... it [i]prevented his mind[/i] from interfering with what God wanted to say to his spirit. And, it caused him to rely completely on faith, rather than whether he could work things out in his mind. I think you've said as much in your testimony here.

 2006/7/15 10:14
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I'm willing to believe they were actually speaking the earthly languages of those that were 'hear'ing in their own language, but my original point was simply that perhaps God gave the interpretation of 'other' tongues, to those who heard, in the same way as there is an intellectual disconnect between the tongues given in church meetings, and the interpretation by someone which a gift of interpretation.

This is the point I thought you were making from the beginning and I can see no reason for it. There is no reason to think that 'perhaps God gave the interpretation of 'other' tongues, to those who heard'. The whole thrust of this is that they heard 'acoustically'
Quote:
“...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
(Acts 2:11 KJVS)

The word 'heard' here is 'akouO' (from whence we get 'acoustic') and the most natural sense is that they heard physically. Greek is rich in words to express mental perceptions but here it uses the simplest word of all which simply means they heard what someone said and the thing that someone said was in their 'own language'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/15 15:33Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
?? That is basically what I said, but I was a little more specific about it. Imagine you attend a church where the pastor just gets up on stage to preach and for an hour long speaks only in tongues and with no interpretation and then at the end says, "Got it? Amen yall be blessed now." That is an example of the kind of stuff that was going. Is that an exact example? No, because I wasn't there, but the idea is that they went around speaking in tongues to each other as if people somehow understood it.


It clarifies what you meant but I don't believe this is what was happening in Corinth. The essence of Corinth's problems was self-orientation; "each one of you says I..." The people in Corinth were asserting their individuality at the expense of a consciousness of being 'in one body'. One of the great things about tongues, generally speaking, is that when someone has given such a tongue utterance he has to be quiet until God gives someone else the interpretation. This means we have to 'tarry for one another' as Paul had earlier expressed it.

The Corinthian assembly seems to have become an arena for people to display their 'gifts' with the principle purpose of 'self expression' rather than a building up of the body of Christ. They were indifferent to each other as they 'ministered' their gift. This is contrary to all the 'body' means and their failure to 'discern the body' had resulted in sickness and even death among them.

I don't think the sense is that 'they went around speaking in tongues to each other'. The sense is that they gave repeated 'tongue utterances' without waiting for the edification factor that only comes through the interpretation.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/15 15:43Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
One of the great things about tongues, generally speaking, is that when someone has given such a tongue utterance he has to be quiet until God gives someone else the interpretation.



Yeah, unless you're Smith Wigglesworth. The tongue followed by the interpretation all in one package.


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Paul Frederick West

 2006/7/15 17:23Profile





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