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Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

Let's simplify this a little.

Fact is wether we have a sin nature or not, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Therefore we all need Christ. Doesn't that seem simple enough?


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Keith

 2006/7/10 2:25Profile
RandyJ
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Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Re:

Christinyou,

Thankyou for your post. I think that you are starting off on the wrong foot. We should first ask ourselves whether or not we have such a thing as a sin nature. And if we have such a thing as a sin nature then ask "where does it dwell?"

Quote:
The nature of Satan in man because of Adams choice to serve and believe him instead of God is the nature that descended to all man, and the proof of that is spiritual and physical death to all man.



Now I see the confusion that exists with the [b][color=CC0000]theory[/color][/b] that we have inherited some kind of sin nature from Adam. You say that Adam got a sin nature by choice but we receive it not by choice but at birth which would be a different kind of nature by the way. My question is this. How can anyone receive a wilful disposition by birth???? No doubt, we all have desires of the flesh that are the [b]occasion[/b] to sin but they cannot be considered the [b]cause[/b] of sin without excusing man of his wickedness for that is practically the same as saying that man cannot help but sin. God created us with these desires and the proper gratification of them is not sinful. Physical and spiritual death came to all because all have sinned. Romans 5:12 "and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

I want to suggest to you all that Romans 7 is not talking about a Christian but a person under the law. Consider a comparison between the person in Romans 7 and the things said of the Christian in Romans 6 and 8.

Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Romans 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Romans 6:6-7 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Romans 6:17-18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Whoever the man was in Romans 7 he was "carnal, sold under sin". The Christian, however, is "made free from sin" and the "law of sin and death". I am, actually, quite surprised that the church at large had missed this point seeing that it is so obvious. I recomend the following:

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Mahan/MisTexts.htm

Let me finalize with some clarification. The real issue with me is not whether "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" for that is an obvious fact of scripture. The fallacy, I believe, is in the statement that morality or a moral nature can be passed on by way of natural generation. No doubt, Adam's sin [b][color=CC0000]somehow[/color][/b] resulted in the fall of man generally but the way in which "many were made sinners" is simply [b][color=990033]assumed[/color][/b] to be by way of natural generation as if there were no other way of answering for it. Now, just in case you would ask me to answer for the [b]way in which[/b] "many were made sinners" I will note that I would be [b]speculating[/b] as well. We may safely say that Adam was tempted ([b]just like all men are or ever will be even the Lord Jesus[/b]) and he sinned resulting in the fall of man. That's all that we can safely say without stepping outside of the realm of scripture.

What, then, is the big problem with this "sin nature" doctrine? The big problem with this "sin nature" doctrine is that it removes responsibility from man for his sin and places it upon some deficiency in our [b][color=990000]God-given[/color][/b] nature. Yes our nature is God-given. Look at James 3:9 "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which [b][color=990000]are made (present tense)[/color][/b] after the similitude of God."
To say that there is some kind of deficiecy in our nature is to slander our maker for two reasons. 1) We are made after his similitude. 2) He made us.
The only deficiency that can exist in us is in our [b][color=990000]moral nature[/color][/b] and our morality cannot be passed on to another by way of natural generation. Look at Ezekiel 18. He states, at the least, the possibility of a good man having an evil son and an evil man who may have a good son. By the way what physiological difference was there between Adam and the rest of mankind that made his offspring follow his morality when our offspring do not necessarily follow ours? Why is it that our children are not born Christians if Adam's children are born sinners? Also, was not Adam redeemed? and if he was then why did not they receive his redeemed nature instead of his sinful one??? The only way that you can answer these questions is to say that God was the author of this set-up, that He instituted the relation between Adam and his offspring so that they receive his character. Could God do such a thing as this??? I answer that He cannot. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began") and he definately cannot do this monstrosity of making a whole host of people sinners [b][color=990000](without their consent)[/color][/b] because of the sin of one man.


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Randy Steinke

 2006/7/10 3:31Profile
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Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re: Original Sin & Sin Nature

To say that man does not have a sinful nature is saying that man has a righteous nature. Right?

If man does not have a sin nature, then why is it that EVERYWHERE in the world people naturally sin? Why is it that NO ONE grows up (except for Christ of course) sinlessly? If we do not have a sin nature then why is it so much easier for a human to sin than to live righteously? If what you are saying is true, then when a child is born it is better for it to be isolated from society, which would currupt its righteous nature.

If we do not have a sin then does that mean we sin solely because of the enviroment that we grow up in? If that is the case, then a deaf and blind person would grow up righteously because of his/her lack of adequate contact with society. I’m sure that Hellen Keller did not live compleltely righteous until she was able to adequately contact with the world around you.

You can prove by all scientific laws that gravity does not exist but if I jump off of a building and fall splat on the ground, there is an obvious conflict.

When I was a young child (2-4 years old) no one had to teach me how to bite, hit and pinch other kids because they stole my crayon.

When one of my cousins was young (1 ½ -2 years old) he would often end up getting into mischif. When his mother would tell him to stop, though he could not speak yet, he would refuse to obey and one could clearly see the rebellion in his eyes. No one taught him that.

If we did not have a sin nature then Paul would not have to continually die to himself or inother words, die to his sinful worldly desires, which he calls, himself.

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

He says that our “flesh sets its desire against the Spirit” and that they “are in opposition to one another.” If we had not a sin nature then our flesh would not set itself against the Spirit and they would not be in opposition to one another. The Greek word for flesh is “sarx” meaning the human body and implying the human nature.

In Galatians 5:19-25 Paul attributes, “immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these” to the flesh, body or human nature. Paul says that these are the fruit of the flesh, and just as “Every tree is known by its fruit” (Mat 12:33) so is our soul. Paul is classifying that our “flesh”, whatever you interpret that to be, naturally bears the fruit of sin. Otherwise, if man did not have a sin nature, Paul cannot classify these things as the fruit of the flesh, because they would have to be from an outside source seeing as our “flesh” or human nature would naturally be righteous.

Romans 8:5-9 also contains more stuff on this.

Eph 4:24, Why would we need to be putting on a “new self” is our old self was naturally righteous? We would simply seed to purge our old self if it is currutped. When Paul said in Eph 4:24 “and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.” can you say that he is implying that the old self was not created in or naturally contains righteousness, holiness and truth?

If we are born without a sin nature, then we are naturally born without the need of Christ’s sacrifice, until the moment that we commit our first sin.

There is no righteousness outside of Christ. Phil 3:9

Col 3:10, “and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created Him.”

I don’t pretend to have all the answers and I do not have the time to find them all at this moment but here is a little something in the mean time.

I just seems odd that if man does not have a sin nature then why does the world take on sin so naturally and has a hard time conforming to the image of Christ?

I don’t naturally want to pay my tithes, I don’t naturally want to obey my leaders, and may more things that I don’t naturally want to do, but putting on the Christ-like nature gives me the desires of His heart.


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Keith

 2006/7/10 11:25Profile
RandyJ
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Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Re: Sin Nature

Quote:
To say that man does not have a sinful nature is saying that man has a righteous nature. Right?



I think that you would be just as wrong to suggest that we have some kind of righteous nature as you would be to suggest that we have some kind of sinful nature.

I am sorry that I did not have the time to read all of your post but what I did notice is that you are referring to the flesh as our sin nature. I said in my last post that our flesh is the location of our propensities and our desires [b]but these desires are not sinful in themselves.[/b] I think that the reason the Apostle calls it our "sinful flesh" is because our flesh is the [b]occasion to sin[/b]. Our flesh may be the cause of [b]temptation[/b] but cannot be the cause of the sin else you excuse the man. It is clear to me that the Apostle Paul was using some kind of personification because it is absurd to refer to anything material as having a moral character.

I am not suggesting at all that we do not have desires to sin or temptations to sin but am simply suggesting that these desires are not sinful in themselves and that the Lord Jesus himself was tempted by the same desires because he had the same basic body that we have.

No time, but please write back, Randy.


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Randy Steinke

 2006/7/10 14:34Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Can anyone reading this say that after being saved, and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that he has never committed another sin by thought or deed?


It is not impossible for a righteous man to commit a sin; otherwise Christ's temptation would have been a charade.

It is equally possible for an unrighteous man to commit a righteous act.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/10 14:48Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Let's simplify this a little.

Fact is wether we have a sin nature or not, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Therefore we all need Christ. Doesn't that seem simple enough?


It's simple enough, it just that we were not discussing acts of sin but the nature of sin.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/10 14:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Now I see the confusion that exists with the theory that we have inherited some kind of sin nature from Adam. You say that Adam got a sin nature by choice but we receive it not by choice but at birth which would be a different kind of nature by the way. My question is this. How can anyone receive a wilful disposition by birth????


Does one dance make me a dancer? or would one song make me a singer? In Romans 5:12 we are taught that as a result of Adam's disobedience sin entered the world, even though Eve's transgression was earlier. There is something being revealed here which is of vital significance. At the point of Adam's disobedience something happened to the human race. It all stemmed from that one man and the next few verses of Romans use the word "one" several times...
Quote:
Rom. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom. 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Reading this passage compares and contrasts two men, one is the old man, the other is the new man.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/7/10 15:00Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
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 Re:

James is a man of God against in many respects, against the Grace of God given by Paul, and yet in his law configured mind and heritage as a Jew, he is a man of God that knows sin and where it comes from.

James 4:14-17 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

"But now ye rejoice in your boastings" in other words your own self confidence, which refers rather to essential character, as well as which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively, calamitous; also (passively) ill, i.e. diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, i.e. derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil,
"All such rejoicing is evil", this is the evil James is speaking of. In its singular person, it is "The Devil", Satan, ill will toward God and self elevation of character above God. That is The Pureness of Sin. It was centered in Satan Himself and when he fell from grace to this earth and became the prince of the power of the air, his role was to bring all God's creatures under his power and displace them from God. He is pure enmity between God and God's created creatures. The angles that chose to go with Him are those that chose not to be Obedient to God but obedient to Satan. Do all of Satan's angles have a choice as to their nature, absolutely, their nature is now a product of their Choice to hear Satan and follow him, just like Adam when he went against God and His commandment "don't eat", so in Adam's choice to follow all evil that James is speaking in the word evil in this one scripture, he Adam chose his own nature, and sin descended on all man of Adam's descendants. That is why God put him out of the Garden so he would not partake of the Tree of Life and forever be evil. God put Adam in Satan's power realm, being this earth's prince and since Adam could not go back to the Garden and partake of the Tree of Life in God's presence and have children birthed under the rule and reign of God, Adam had no choice but to be fruitful and multiply in the realm of Satan and all Adam's descendants had no choice in being under the rule of Satan as their father by his spirit that ruled them.

Now if we believe God about Jesus Christ His Son, we are changing kingdoms, from the kingdom of the prince of the power of the air who offered all kingdoms to Jesus Christ if He would bow down and worship him as Adam did by eating of the fruit that kills all mankind that are Satan's. In believing in Christ we no longer are of this earthly kingdom, we are of our Father God's kingdom and we are already seated at the right hand of God with Christ Jesus in Heavenly Places.

From the Kingdom of Satan to the Kingdom of God, a complete nature switch from the evil of Satan's world to the pure righteousness of God's Creation before Adam sinned.

Sin is Choice and Adam made that choice by believing Satan and ate. Believing in Jesus Christ is being birthed again into the Kingdom of God by Jesus Christ, which was before Adam sinned, which sin brought all man into Satan's sin realm. That is how man is born in iniquity. Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. In other words I was perverted already and brought forth in sin, and by the offense and penalty of sin I was brought forth already in sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/10 21:00Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

Randy wrote:

"I think that you would be just as wrong to suggest that we have some kind of righteous nature as you would be to suggest that we have some kind of sinful nature."

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Who is our righteous nature? God has made Christ in us our righteousness, which comes from His Nature.

Man's nature by Satan brought forth death. Where did death come from? Adam is the death of all mankind, by his choice, the wrong tree and believing the wrong created being instead of the Creator.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Adam, he believed Satan, in Christ we believe God concerning Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again as in Adam all die because of his choice so also shall all live by the choice of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/12 4:50Profile









 Re:Adam & Eve- where are they today?


Stever's response to Christinyou:

Are you saying that Adam is not in heaven, but will be judged at the Great White Throne and be in hell for eternity?

God bless,

Stever :-D


Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Randy wrote:

"I think that you would be just as wrong to suggest that we have some kind of righteous nature as you would be to suggest that we have some kind of sinful nature."

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Who is our righteous nature? God has made Christ in us our righteousness, which comes from His Nature.

Man's nature by Satan brought forth death. Where did death come from? Adam is the death of all mankind, by his choice, the wrong tree and believing the wrong created being instead of the Creator.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Adam, he believed Satan, in Christ we believe God concerning Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again as in Adam all die because of his choice so also shall all live by the choice of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

 2006/7/16 1:33





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