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 Original Sin & Sin Nature

Stever posts:

I would like to post an excellent sermon on Original Sin and Sin nature:

SERMON: THE GREAT INFECTION

Preached by Gregory W. Lee
11 June 2006

I. Introduction
-- turn in Bibles to Romans 5

12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

-- have you ever thought much about sin? -- you know we use this word in the church a lot -- we sing about it and we talk about it and we worry about it -- we know that it is the one thing that we all share -- the Bible tells us in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
-- we know that sin is what separates us from God -- it is our sin that condemns us to hell -- and it is our sin that caused Jesus to come and die on the cross in our place
-- but have you ever really stopped to think about what sin is? -- did you know that the Bible makes a distinction between the words "sin" and "sins" in various places? -- that there is a difference between the two?
-- the word "sin" is the Greek word "harmatia" -- it is an archery term that literally means, "missing the mark" -- it means that we missed following God's command -- we missed God's plan for our life -- and we went off and disobeyed Him -- we sinned

-- but in the Book of Romans, Paul makes a distinction between "sins" and "sin" -- he uses the plural word "sins" to refer to all of our acts of disobedience -- all the things we have done wrong

-- [b][color=CC0000]but he uses the singular form of the word "sin" to refer to something else -- our SIN NATURE-- our "OLD MAN" -- this INTERNAL NATURE THAT LIVES INSIDE EACH OF US THAT CAUSES US TO DISOBEY GOD -- it is this SIN NATURE INSIDE OF US THAT WE REFER TO AS ORIGINAL SIN.[/color][/b]

II. Original Sin
-- the doctrine of original sin is one of the foundational doctrines of our church -- this doctrine teaches that when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden, sin entered the world and, as a result, all of us are born with this sin nature inside of us that causes us to sin
-- it all goes back to Genesis 2:16-17 when God told Adam that he could eat from any tree in the garden, but that he must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because if he ate of it, he would die
-- and here in this passage in Romans, Paul tells us that that is exactly what happened -- throughout this passage, we read that death and sin came because of the trespass of one man -- look back at verse 12

12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

-- because of Adam's disobedience, sin and death -- both physical and spiritual death -- came into the world
-- Paul tells us the same thing in verse 15 -- "if the many died by the trespass of the one man" -- verse 16 -- "the result of the one's man sin -- the judgement followed one sin and brought condemnation" -- verse 17 -- by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man" -- and verses 18-19

18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

-- when Eve took a bite out of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and gave it to Adam -- somehow, sin and death came into the world and became a part of them -- and became a part of who we are
-- because of their disobedience and their trespass, we all became sinners -- we are all born sinners -- that is the doctrine of original sin
-- now this concept always caused me a problem -- you see, one of the principles that we learned in biology was that physical changes to the body were not inherited -- only genetic changes were inherited
-- there was a biologist many years ago named Heckel who proposed a theory called "hopeful monsters" -- in this theory, he said that the way the different animals came about was that a physical change happened to them and that that change was inherited by their offspring
-- for instance, the evolutionists tell us that whales came from animals who used to live on land and have legs -- Heckel would say that something happened to one of these animals who lived on land -- their legs were injured or were cut off -- and then those physical changes were inherited by their offspring -- so, if an animal or person had an accident and lost a leg, then their babies were born missing a leg -- according to this theory, over time, whales evolved because of these inherited physical changes
-- but, this theory of Heckel's was quickly discounted -- we all know that if a person has an accident -- if you lose a limb or have some other physical problem -- then that physical change is not passed on to our children -- physical changes do not affect our offspring
-- so this left me confused about original sin -- how did the physical act of disobedience by Adam and Eve -- how did eating the apple in the Garden of Eden -- cause sin to be inherited by all people?
-- this bothered me for years and years -- for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how Adam eating from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused me to be born a sinner -- how could a physical act done by Adam be transferred to me?
-- the only way for this to work would be if the original sin actually changed Adam and Eve's DNA -- changed their genes -- and then those damaged genes were inherited by all of us -- but, still, that would mean a physical act caused genetic change -- and that had been proven wrong by scientists years ago
-- so how else could this sin nature be inherited by us, Adam and Eve's children?
-- well, as time went on and as I learned more about biology, I learned a curious fact -- our parents can pass on more than their genetic material -- their DNA -- to us
-- it turns out that some diseases -- especially some viruses -- can be passed on to us from our parents -- for instance, we know now that the AIDS virus can be transmitted from infected mothers to their children -- there are many babies born every single day infected with AIDS -- who got the disease because their mother had it
-- we see the same thing with rabies -- rabies can be transmitted from an infected mother to her offspring -- this just happened recently with a litter of kittens in Maryland -- they were not bitten by a rabid animal, but they were all infected with rabies because their mother was infected
-- and this, I think, holds the key to understanding how we have inherited our sin nature from Adam and Eve -- this explains how sin and death came into the world through them and lives on in us

-- when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the fruit, sin came into their bodies like a virus -- it infected them with its poison -- and it was passed on from them to their children and then to their grandchildren and their great grandchildren until it finally passed on to us
-- it was through their infected blood that sin and death entered the world and entered each of us
-- God tells us in Leviticus 17:11 that the life of a creature is in its blood -- and, I think it follows, that the death of a creature is in its blood as well -- we are all sinners because we have within our veins the infected blood of Adam
-- Ted Dekker picked up this theme in his Christian fiction trilogy -- Black, Red, and White -- in these books, the entire world becomes infected with an airborne virus -- everyone on earth is destined to die because a virus has entered the world through the actions of one man -- this is exactly what happened in the Garden of Eden
-- everyone on earth is destined to die because of the actions of one man brought the sin virus into the world -- we are all sinners because we have inherited this great infection -- this sin nature -- from Adam
-- we are sinners -- not because of what we do -- but because of who we are -- as Watchman Nee wrote, "the trouble is in our heredity and not our behavior"

III. The Origins of a Sinner
-- this is a Christian concept that always gave me pause -- how can someone say that a precious little baby who has just been born is a sinner? -- that little baby has done nothing wrong -- they haven't disobeyed God -- they haven't sinned -- they haven't gone out and broken any of the ten commandments
-- the answer lies in the great infection that we just talked about -- you are not a sinner because you sin -- you are a sinner because you are born with this infection in your blood -- you are a sinner because you have inherited this sin nature as a virus from your parents
-- its just like a baby born with AIDS -- that baby has done nothing wrong -- it hasn't had unprotected sex -- it hasn't shared needles when it did drugs -- it was just born infected with a virus because its parents were infected before it
-- Paul tells us here in this passage that sin and death entered the world -- it entered all of us and infected all of us -- because of one man's trespass -- because of Adam's disobedience, we are born infected with a sin nature that causes us to want to sin -- that causes us to want to do things that God does not want us to do

-- now this is an important concept to grasp -- you are a sinner because of who you are -- not because of what you do -- you are a sinner because you are a child of Adam -- you trace your heritage back to him -- and, as a result, you are infected with this great infection -- with this sin nature inside of you

-- this explains Romans 3:23 where Paul writes that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God -- this explains how that little baby who just took its first breath is a sinner -- this explains how that good ole boy you know -- the one who really doesn't do much wrong and tries to live a good moral life -- is still a sinner
-- it's not about what you do -- it's about who you are -- and you are a sinner because you are infected with sin

-- think about an alcoholic -- based on scientific studies, it appears that alcoholics are born that way -- they are not alcoholics because they drink and can't quit -- they are alcoholics because that is who they are -- it is part of their nature -- I am sure today that there are many alcoholics walking around who have never taken a drink in their life -- but if they ever do, then their disease kicks in and turns them into someone who drinks to excess most of the time
-- it's not about what you do -- it's about who you are

-- that's why you can't get to heaven on your own -- that's why you can't work your way to heaven -- that's why you can't be good enough to earn your way to heaven -- even if you never go out and disobey one of God's commandments, you are a sinner because you are born in sin -- as David wrote in Psalm 51:5, "I was sinful at birth -- sinful from the time my mother conceived me"
-- we have a disease -- this sin nature in our hearts -- and it is this sin nature that is keeping us from heaven

IV. The Answer to Sin
-- so, what can we do about it? -- what is the answer to this raging infection in our souls? -- this sin nature that has become such a part of us that we are born sinners?
-- well, what would you do if you were sick and infected with a virus? -- you'd go to a doctor and get a shot -- you'd go get an antivirus -- something that would kill the virus within you and make you clean again

-- and that's exactly what we have to do with this sin infection in our life -- we have to receive an antivirus and make ourselves clean and whole again
-- we call this antivirus "grace" and it comes about through the blood of Jesus -- the blood of Jesus is our antivirus -- it is the only thing that can remove our sin -- our sin nature -- our great infection -- and offer forgiveness of our sins
-- in other words, this antivirus -- the blood of Christ -- not only forgives us of all of our wrongdoings -- of all of our disobedience -- but it also overcomes and destroys our sin nature -- that inherent part of us that causes us to be born sinners and give in to temptation
-- look at verse 15

15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

-- Paul tells us here that God is offering us the gift of righteousness and life through Jesus Christ -- now that's an important thought
-- God's offer is not like the trespass of Adam -- when Adam fell in the Garden of Eden and was infected with this sin nature, we all became infected, whether we wanted to or not -- we had no choice -- it became part of who we were -- and, as a result, we were born sinners
-- but the blood of Christ that washes away our sins is a gift -- it is something that we have to accept -- it is something that we have to choose in order to receive it
-- if I am sick and go to the doctor and he offers me a shot with an antivirus in it and I say, "No thanks," then I don't get the healing and protection that that shot offers -- the only way for me to get healed is to accept his offer and receive the shot
-- in the same way, if God offers us an antivirus through the blood of Jesus, the only way to be healed is to receive the treatment -- to accept God's gift and to be covered with the blood of Christ
-- there is nothing else we can do -- there is nothing else we can take -- home remedies won't work -- being extra good won't work -- living a perfect and moral life from now on won't work -- the only thing that will work to remove this infection from our lives is to receive this free gift of grace from God -- to accept the death of Jesus on the cross on our behalf

V. Closing
-- Paul tells us here that God's gift is all sufficient and that it can lead all of us from death into life
-- God's grace is greater than all our sins -- through the obedience of Christ -- through His sinless, perfect life, God's grace has overflowed to all of us and made it possible for all of us to be made righteous and clean and whole
-- Maybe you've never received Jesus as your Lord and Savior -- maybe you're still sitting there in your sins -- with your great infection -- with your sin nature intact -- the good news for you this morning is that there is healing in the blood of Jesus -- all you have to do is come to Him in faith -- confess and repent of your sins -- and ask Him to forgive your sins and come into your life as your Lord and Savior -- and you will be healed
-- maybe you have accepted cleansing from God, but you've found yourself falling back lately -- giving in to sin more and more -- there's also such a thing as booster shots -- and maybe that's what you need this morning -- to rededicate your life to God -- to ask Jesus to cleanse you from your sins and to claim the promise of 1 John 1:9, "If you confess your sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
-- whatever your need is today, the altar is open for all who wish to respond to God's word
-- let us pray

posted by Gregory | 5:14 PM

2 Comments:
Brett said...
I agree. I have a question, though. Why does something physically have to change in our DNA? I'm not so sure this corruption of our nature can be tracked physically.

10:15 AM
Gregory said...
That is why I presented our sin nature as an infection rather than a change to our DNA. I do not think we could inherit our sin nature through Adam's DNA, even if it was a mutation that came in when he disobeyed God. I think the message of the Bible is that our sin nature is something totally foreign and alien to our body, like a virus.

Of course, keep in mind that we are trying to use human terms to wrap our brains around a spiritual mystery that we will not fully understand this side of Heaven. As an imperfect analogy, I'm sure my characterization of sin as virus fails on many levels.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[b][color=0000FF]Stever concludes:[/color][/b]
I disagree with the above sermon on one point. It is my understanding that Sin entered the world by one man, Adam. Adam was God's representative on the earth, and because of Adams sin, all were judged to be in sin by God. Eve did not sin, she was deceived by Satan, while Adam was the sinner. However, at the moment of Adams sin, Eve was "in" sin as well. Christ came to this earth to "take away the sin of the world". He did that as our sinless substitute on Calvary, and took away the penalty of sin- eternal damnation, away from all of those that believe in HIM.

However, we still have a problem. Eventhough Christ has settled the sin problem we are still in our bodies of flesh and blood. The Bible tells us that "flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life". We must receive a new glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, exactly like Christ's, to be able to inherit eternal life (Luke 24:39).

[b][color=0000FF]So, here we are today. As believers, we all have the down payment, the Holy Spirit that lives in our hearts. We are saved from eternal damnation. We are washed in His blood, and our sins are forgiven- past, present and future.

The problem is,and continues to be, we are still surronded by this body of flesh and blood, that still has the sin nature in it that we have inherited from Adam. Christ tells us at the Sermon on the Mount that if we even think of sinning, we are just as guilty as if we had completed the act.


Can anyone reading this say that after being saved, and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that he has never committed another sin by thought or deed? The Bible tells us that if there is anyone amongst us who makes this claim that he is a liar (1 John 2:4 " 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.".[/color][/b]

The sin nature that is in each of us, and will continue to flow through our veins, until our dying day, makes it necessary for us to have a personal, close, walk with the Lord:

1 John 1:8-10 " 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Not until we see him as he is, at the rapture, will we be like Him.

Now, we see through a glass darkly, but then (at the rapture) face to face.
1 Cor 13:
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

God bless,

Stever :-D


 2006/7/4 11:28
rbrown281
Member



Joined: 2006/7/4
Posts: 2


 Re: Original Sin & Sin Nature

stever, Eve was in sin as well, but the focus is that when Adam sinned sin entered the world through him because the seed of all mankind was in the loins of Adam.

 2006/7/4 13:52Profile
rbrown281
Member



Joined: 2006/7/4
Posts: 2


 Re: Original Sin & Sin Nature

Also, He said (but it also overcomes and destroys our sin nature). The Holy Spirit helps us but the sin nature is not destroyed, but dormant. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have DOMINION over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and THOU SHALT RULE over him.

 2006/7/4 14:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rbrown281 wrote:
stever, Eve was in sin as well, but the focus is that when Adam sinned sin entered the world through him because the seed of all mankind was in the loins of Adam.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

I know that it was quite a long post. This is part of my summary, at the end of it that agrees with your position:

Stever concludes:
I disagree with the above sermon on one point. It is my understanding that Sin entered the world by one man, Adam. Adam was God's representative on the earth, and because of Adams sin, all were judged to be in sin by God. Eve did not sin, she was deceived by Satan, while Adam was the sinner. However, at the moment of Adams sin, Eve was "in" sin as well. Christ came to this earth to "take away the sin of the world". He did that as our sinless substitute on Calvary, and took away the penalty of sin- eternal damnation, away from all of those that believe in HIM.

However, we still have a problem. Eventhough Christ has settled the sin problem we are still in our bodies of flesh and blood. The Bible tells us that "flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life". We must receive a new glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, exactly like Christ's, to be able to inherit eternal life (Luke 24:39).

So, here we are today. As believers, we all have the down payment, the Holy Spirit that lives in our hearts. We are saved from eternal damnation. We are washed in His blood, and our sins are forgiven- past, present and future.

The problem is,and continues to be, we are still surronded by this body of flesh and blood, that still has the sin nature in it that we have inherited from Adam. Christ tells us at the Sermon on the Mount that if we even think of sinning, we are just as guilty as if we had completed the act.


Can anyone reading this say that after being saved, and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that he has never committed another sin by thought or deed? The Bible tells us that if there is anyone amongst us who makes this claim that he is a liar (1 John 2:4 " 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.".

The sin nature that is in each of us, and will continue to flow through our veins, until our dying day, makes it necessary for us to have a personal, close, walk with the Lord:

1 John 1:8-10 " 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Not until we see him as he is, at the rapture, will we be like Him.

Now, we see through a glass darkly, but then (at the rapture) face to face.
1 Cor 13:
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/7/4 16:59









 Re:

Stever responds:

It seems to me that the longer that I am a Christian, the less I sin. However, sin will never be dormant in any of us, until the resurrection. He has paid the price for our sin, for the sin of the world but we still are housed in our corrupt bodies of flesh and blood.

Only at the rapture will we be like him.


Christ's words at the Sermon on the Mount clarify the issue for me. If we sin by thought, we are judged guilty of committing the actual sin. This is the standard for being sinless, as Christ was--we cannot sin by thought or deed. We will not have the power to fulfill this requirement until we are like Him, in our new resurrected bodies:

20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24. Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35. Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


God bless,

Stever :-D

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Quote:

rbrown281 wrote:
Also, He said (but it also overcomes and destroys our sin nature). The Holy Spirit helps us but the sin nature is not destroyed, but dormant. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have DOMINION over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and THOU SHALT RULE over him.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 2006/7/4 17:05
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Original Sin & Sin Nature

Stever wrote:

Quote:
The sin nature that is in each of us, and will continue to flow through our veins, until our dying day, makes it necessary for us to have a personal, close, walk with the Lord:


Please reconsider this statment. You must not think that our sinful nature is alive.
[b]Romans 6:2[/b] [color=990000]God forbid. How shall [b]we, that are dead to sin,[/b] live any longer therein?[/color]
The reason you think that the "sinful nature" is till alive is because we are still tempted and batteling every day.

The reason we have sympathy for those temptations is that we remember the pleasure of the sin and are fooled into sinning. However, when we do sin, we remember or relize that we actualy hate that sin.
Like the Children of Israel, they remembered the pleasurs of the bondage, but in reality, thay hated it.

 2006/7/5 18:33Profile
RandyJ
Member



Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Re: Original Sin & Sin Nature (can of worms)

Oooooh boy. You have really opened up a can of worms. I have the time right now because my wife went to bed so I will try my best to convey my opinion.

I think that, first of all, you are on the wrong track to begin with in thinking that mankind inherits some kind of "sin nature" from Adam, either physical or some kind of disease. Where does it say in the Bible that sin is some kind of disease or physican defect?

Quote:
-- but he uses the singular form of the word "sin" to refer to something else -- our SIN NATURE-- our "OLD MAN" -- this INTERNAL NATURE THAT LIVES INSIDE EACH OF US THAT CAUSES US TO DISOBEY GOD -- it is this SIN NATURE INSIDE OF US THAT WE REFER TO AS ORIGINAL SIN.



Let me point out here that [b]you[/b] are the [b]sole[/b] cause of all your sin and not a "sin nature" living inside of us. If you refer to the tendancies and propensities that inhere to our very nature then I think that you are right but remember that Christ had all of the same tendancies and propensities and was "tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15


Quote:
the doctrine of original sin is one of the foundational doctrines of our church -- this doctrine teaches that when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden, sin entered the world and, as a result, all of us are born with this sin nature inside of us that causes us to sin



Actually, as far as I understand, the doctrine of a "sin nature" passed on from Adam started with Augustine who spent seven years in a Gnostic cult before being converted. Is this what mainstream Christianity believes? Probably, but I will never adhere to it for it practically excuses man from being responsible for his sin and makes it more of a calamity rather than a crime.

Quote:
and here in this passage in Romans, Paul tells us that that is exactly what happened -- throughout this passage, we read that death and sin came because of the trespass of one man -- look back at verse 12



Actually, if you look at the verse it says "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". Death passed upon all men because all men have sinned.

Quote:
-- when Eve took a bite out of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and gave it to Adam -- somehow, sin and death came into the world and became a part of them -- and became a part of who we are
-- because of their disobedience and their trespass, we all became sinners -- we are all born sinners -- that is the doctrine of original sin



Sin became a part of them? Non-sense! This is the doctrine of original sin? Yes, and that is exactly why I disagree with it. It slanders and libels the character of God and represents Him as a tyrant who damns millions to Hell for recieving a nature that necessitates their sinfulness, the reception of which, by the way, was not by their own consent.

Quote:
-- when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the fruit, sin came into their bodies like a virus -- it infected them with its poison -- and it was passed on from them to their children and then to their grandchildren and their great grandchildren until it finally passed on to us



Where does it say that in the Bible????

Quote:
-- the answer lies in the great infection that we just talked about -- you are not a sinner because you sin -- you are a sinner because you are born with this infection in your blood -- you are a sinner because you have inherited this sin nature as a virus from your parents



Away with this Gnosticism!

Quote:
Can anyone reading this say that after being saved, and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that he has never committed another sin by thought or deed? The Bible tells us that if there is anyone amongst us who makes this claim that he is a liar (1 John 2:4 " 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.".



"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1st John 1:8

I am in wonder at how many people misunderstand this verse!!! There is a [b]huge[/b] difference between "having sin" and "doing sin". The verse says "he that says he [b]has[/b] no sin". It [b]does not say[/b] "he that says he [b]does[/b] not sin". There is a big difference. The common interpretation makes the Apostle John to contradict himself for he says "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." 1st John 2:1 and "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" 1st John 3:6 and "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" 1st John 3:9

Why would the Apostle exhort us not to sin if he knew very well that it was impossible for us to not sin????

"Are men born sinners? Our answer to this question will affect our attitude toward sin and will ultimately affect our conduct as well. The Christian's views on sin cannot help but affect his conduct. If the Christian believes he is born with a sinful nature and sins unavoidably because of that nature, he is not likely to view his sins as the serious crimes they really are. If he believes he has a nature that makes holiness impossible, he is not likely to be concerned about sinning against God. If he believes that God is his Creator and that he has been created with a sinful nature, this must affect his attitude toward God and the justice of God's dealings with man." Tom Overstreet

I encuorage all who read this to read also this:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

All this is said in love and respect for those who choose to believe differently than myself.

Randy


_________________
Randy Steinke

 2006/7/8 3:42Profile









 Sin is "you" in control of you.

LOCATING SIN IN BODY ONLY

Great confusion exists right here. So many locate sin in the body, thinking that sin is something material, that it is a sort of "lump of something" that either must be removed by some kind of spiritual surgery, or that must be retained as long as we are in the body. But sin is not material and does not have its seat in the body. Sin, rather, is in the soul, in the spiritual part of man. Sin is a tendency, an attitude, a wrong way of looking at things. Sin stems from self being at the center of the life. But when we surrender fully to Christ and trust Him to forgive and also to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, then sin is removed and the taint gone. The heart that is pure and filled with perfect love is ready for the anointing of the Holy Spirit. But even then, lest we again begin to please ourselves, we need the daily application of the Cross to maintain the decision made in the crisis of sanctification.

 2006/7/8 6:37
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re: Sin is "you" in control of you.

In not knowing what happens at salvation, there is no understanding of sin. Who is the liar?
Who is the tempter? Who sinned before Adam? Consequently who is the nature of sin. Was Adam created with a sin nature? No. Adam chose his nature when he chose to believe Satan over God.

Adam did not have a nature, that is why there was a tree of Life, and a tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam was not told or commanded if you will, Don't eat of the Tree of Life. Adam was told to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil. Where is knowledge stored in the created being Adam? It is stored in the soul of a man, which is the same as the spirit of a man. Satan is spirit, when Adam was thrown out of the Garden of Eden, he left the protection of the Spirit of God because he left the Spirit of God when he chose the spirit of Satan in believing and serving Satan and not God. This became the nature of man by Adam's choice, Just like we choose the Nature of God when we believe In His Son Jesus Christ. Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

You cannot serve God and Satan at the same time, and you cannot have Jesus Christ in your Spirit and Satan in your spirit at the same time. If we have the Spirit of Christ in us, the Spirit of Christ has the nature of God and the spirit of Satan cannot exist in the same place or time or space. The nature of Satan in man because of Adams choice to serve and believe him instead of God is the nature that descended to all man, and the proof of that is spiritual and physical death to all man. Whom we serve is the nature we have. Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

When we serve Satan God will not honor anything that man does. Man is in total separation from God because of the Satan nature that is in him, because that is who man serves. Believing in Christ change the servanthood from Satan to God. That is the Change in nature from sin nature in Satan to God nature in Christ Jesus who new no sin. Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is our new nature, the nature of Christ which is God's Nature and we no longer serve sin.
We either have the nature of sin in us or the Nature of God sin destroyed. This New Nature is God Nature and a New Life in Christ Jesus being born again of the Spirit and Water. The Spirit of Christ and the Water is the Living Water His Spirit give us in Salvation. We are perfect In Spirit because it is the Spirit of Christ, we are becoming perfect in our soul mind that is the spirit of a man, not the Spirit of Christ that is our New Nature in Christ Jesus. Our Body cannot choose whom it will serve, it is unable to cleanse itself and must die. The Spirit, and the spirit of a man and his soul, are already saved and being saved. The Body will be saved on resurrection day and all will be one in Christ Jesus. His Spirit His mind His Body, ours, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Son's of God living in our Father's House with our Father's Nature by Christ Jesus that is Born Again in us now.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So the flesh is sin and may sin but the spirit cannot, and the mind does not have to depend on who the mind is trusting, for we have the Mind of Christ, the old man or the New Man. Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I (New Man)that do it, but sin (old man)that dwelleth in me. That is in my flesh.

Romans 7:23-24 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (flesh) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Again: Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The Spirit is Christ, the mind, the New Mind of Christ by whose Nature we now serve the Law of God. The body will serve because it has been quickened and can now serve the Mind of Christ, and it will still die and be resurrected like His seed of corn that was planted in the ground and bring forth a new glorious body Just Life His, or changed in the twinkling of an eye.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/7/9 23:02Profile
wyattearp
Member



Joined: 2006/1/28
Posts: 48


 Re:

Randy3

An excelent post, could not agree with you more. Would like to point out a scripture verse that I find conclusive on this subject.
Gen. 8-21
"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil FROM HIS YOUTH;....."

The Lord says man's heart is evil from his youth not his birth.

Wyatt

 2006/7/10 0:09Profile





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