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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""There is a story of a true born again believer that gets angry with God and forsakes Him even to the point of fighting againt HIM. You can not say that he is still saved and going to heaven further more you can not say that he was never saved in the first place.""

Who are we to judge. With your quote, the Cross of Christ means nothing and it is all up to man whether he is saved or not, or whether he looses his salvation or not. This is why God had to send His Only Begotten Son, because none of us could make it any other way except to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When a person is born again it is not just a couple of words used in the bible. Being born again is a new creature, and that new creature is now a Christ person, because of the Spirit of Christ that is now his life. There is only one way I could not have been born from my mothers womb, that is death, either aborted or the death of my mother before I was born. God is not going to die and He is not an abortionist. If God the Father went to all the trouble and pain just to purchase son's for His House, once He has birthed them He is not going to throw them away and they cannot leave Him, He now has His Nature in His son's, both birthed and adopted. That is The Spirit of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit. If you think we are strong enough to brake the seal, I think you have underestimated God. That is a mistake that Satan will use in any life. The lie: you are god and you choose who you are going to serve and your life is your own to give or take away from God. This leaves a pretty pitiful picture of who our God is. Why every time someone says you cannot loose your salvation does the people of the lesser god come steaming out of the crevices and screaming, yes I can. Well its not up to them. If Christ was not enough to show that God is serious, and Justified in birthing His own children created in Christ Jesus for His Own House, then I don't know what is.

If you think you can loose your salvation, you either never had it or are deceived in your mind by the wicked one who ruled your life until your rebirth. You are saying God did not do and can not do what it takes to save His Children. Well I believe our God is even greater than this and we don't have but the smallest concept of Who He is and what He is capable of or we surely would not say if God has chosen to put His Nature in me by His Son Jesus Christ, who bought and paid for me, who am I to say I can get rid of it if I want to.

If God has chosen for me to be in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Just because I believe what He says about His Son, then it is not for me to say no. Ok, crawl out of the cracks and crevices and prove me wrong. Our God is One God and this is His Creation, He will do with it what He wants and chooses for His Glory, not what I choose to think or do. Go to Hell, loose rewards, loose salvation, only if God says so. But He has said, I have done it all, If you think you can choose go ahead and try.

Do people truly think sin can keep them from God. The Cross of Christ is the answer, God is justified to do what ever He wants. Ecc 5:6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it [was] an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands???
Old and New: Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If God has power over an honorable vessel, it will be honorable. If not I guarantee it will be dishonorable.

In Christ by the Power of God to an honorable vessel: Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/30 20:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
J-bird wrote:
Quote:
Saul never lost his salvation. He just lost his annointing as the leader of Israel. He paid the price for his rebellion.


What do you think the Anointing represeants?

David cried...
[b]Psalm 51:11[/b] [color=990000]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.[/color]

[b]1John 2:20[/b] [color=990000]As for you, you have an anointing from the holy One and have perfect knowledge.[/color]

This anointing is the Holy Spirit as in

[b]2Corinth 1:21-22, 5:5[/b] & [b]1:21[/b] [color=990000]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath [b]anointed[/b] us, is God;
[b]:22[/b] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[b]5:5[/b] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[/color]
and
[b]Eph 1:13-14[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[b]:14[/b] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/color]

If you loose your anointing as Saul did, it is the same as looseing salvation.

Quote:
Did Samson lose his salvation? He died in much the same way as Saul. His rebellion caused his calamity.


Samson died in repentance.
Quote:
There are plenty of verses that tell me I will be punished.


[b]1John 4:18[/b] [color=990000] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath punishment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]
or
There is no fear in love, The thought of being punished is what makes us afraid. It shows that we have not really learned to love.
God does not punish His children, He diciplines us.

If I thought I had to keep my salvation I would be a basket case. I would never have any peace. My mind would be filled with terror and I would never sleep again.

J-bird

 2006/6/30 20:39









 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

""There is a story of a true born again believer that gets angry with God and forsakes Him even to the point of fighting againt HIM. You can not say that he is still saved and going to heaven further more you can not say that he was never saved in the first place.""

Who are we to judge. With your quote, the Cross of Christ means nothing and it is all up to man whether he is saved or not, or whether he looses his salvation or not. This is why God had to send His Only Begotten Son, because none of us could make it any other way except to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When a person is born again it is not just a couple of words used in the bible. Being born again is a new creature, and that new creature is now a Christ person, because of the Spirit of Christ that is now his life. There is only one way I could not have been born from my mothers womb, that is death, either aborted or the death of my mother before I was born. God is not going to die and He is not an abortionist. If God the Father went to all the trouble and pain just to purchase son's for His House, once He has birthed them He is not going to throw them away and they cannot leave Him, He now has His Nature in His son's, both birthed and adopted. That is The Spirit of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit. If you think we are strong enough to brake the seal, I think you have underestimated God. That is a mistake that Satan will use in any life. The lie: you are god and you choose who you are going to serve and your life is your own to give or take away from God. This leaves a pretty pitiful picture of who our God is. Why every time someone says you cannot loose your salvation does the people of the lesser god come steaming out of the crevices and screaming, yes I can. Well its not up to them. If Christ was not enough to show that God is serious, and Justified in birthing His own children created in Christ Jesus for His Own House, then I don't know what is.

If you think you can loose your salvation, you either never had it or are deceived in your mind by the wicked one who ruled your life until your rebirth. You are saying God did not do and can not do what it takes to save His Children. Well I believe our God is even greater than this and we don't have but the smallest concept of Who He is and what He is capable of or we surely would not say if God has chosen to put His Nature in me by His Son Jesus Christ, who bought and paid for me, who am I to say I can get rid of it if I want to.

If God has chosen for me to be in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Just because I believe what He says about His Son, then it is not for me to say no. Ok, crawl out of the cracks and crevices and prove me wrong. Our God is One God and this is His Creation, He will do with it what He wants and chooses for His Glory, not what I choose to think or do. Go to Hell, loose rewards, loose salvation, only if God says so. But He has said, I have done it all, If you think you can choose go ahead and try.

Do people truly think sin can keep them from God. The Cross of Christ is the answer, God is justified to do what ever He wants. Ecc 5:6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it [was] an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands???
Old and New: Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If God has power over an honorable vessel, it will be honorable. If not I guarantee it will be dishonorable.

In Christ by the Power of God to an honorable vessel: Phillip



Very good post :-D
J-bird

 2006/6/30 20:40
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
If I thought I had to keep my salvation I would be a basket case. I would never have any peace. My mind would be filled with terror and I would never sleep again.


That is like saying, "If I thought I had to keep my marriage I would be a basket case......".

But, you seem to be doing a graet job so far with your salvation. ;-)

It isn't that mind bogling if you understood Love. [b]1John 4:18b[/b] [color=990000]He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]

I will pray for you.

 2006/6/30 22:32Profile









 Re:

I appreciate the prayers but your wrong brother.

I know me, and I know that I could'nt keep it. I'm too sinfull and vile. I live by the grace of God every day. I win some battles but I lose others. I know that in every case it's God showing me that I must depend on him. I'm not strong enough and "all my works are as filthy rags". "To God be the glory." "Let God be true and every man a liar."

Grace is an UNDESERVED act of kindness bestowed upon us by God.

J-bird

 2006/6/30 22:47
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
I appreciate the prayers but your wrong brother.

I know me, and I know that I could'nt keep it. I'm too sinfull and vile.



Do you not understand that we are new creations and no longer sinners?

Do you not understand that it is the Love of God that keeps us.

Our love for Him, for He first loved us, is what keeps us depending on Him.

of course, we all live by the grace of God every day, and it is by that grace through faith.

No one is strong enough and "all our works are as filthy rags, b[]BUT[/b] He has cleansed us and given us His righteousness and when we are weak HE is strong, [b]that is why[/b] we love Him to much to depart from the savlation He offers.

I am not saying that Grace is an desereved, but that [b]He gives us free will to depart from him, otherwise it isn't grace nor true love.[/b]

Could you please explain this
Quote:
If I thought I had to keep my salvation I would be a basket case. I would never have any peace. My mind would be filled with terror and I would never sleep again.


All I see that this is saying is, in other words...
"If I thought I had to love God enough to stay in Him I would be a basket case. He couldn' give me the peace. My mind would be filled with terror because of my selfishness and I would never sleep again because of the doubt of my hard heart.

God is Love and this is the fruit of our salvation.
[b]The [u]fruit[/u] that we bear is born out of this love.[/b]

This is the work that James talks about.
[b]Notice
Jam 2:15-17[/b] [color=990000]Suppose a Christian brother or sister is poorly clad or lacks daily food,
[b]:16[/b] and one of you says to them, "I wish you well; keep yourselves warm and well fed," and yet you do not give them what they need; what is the use of that?
[b]:17[/b] Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.[/color]
Compair this with
[b]1John 3:17[/b] [color=990000]But if any one has this world's wealth and sees that his brother man is in need, and yet hardens his heart against him--how can such a one[b]continue to love God?[/b] [/color]
So you see that the work of faith is love.

This is what Jesus is talking about here when He gives us a choice to abide in Him.....
[b]John 15:4-12 [color=990000]Abide in me,[/b] and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[b]:5[/b] I am the vine, ye are the branches: [b]He that abideth in me,[/b] and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[b]:6[/b] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[b]:7[/b] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[b]:8[/b] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[b]:9[/b] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: [b]continue ye in my love.[/b]
[b]:10[/b] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[b]:11[/b] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[b]:12[/b] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.[/color]

 2006/7/1 10:43Profile









 Re:

Logic

Do you still sin? That makes you a sinner. The only differnce between you and a lost person is your a SAVED sinner. If you offend the law in one area than you've offended in all areas. If you brake ONE than you've broken them ALL. Have you stayed sinless since your conversion? If no than you are a SINNER guilty of breaking the WHOLE law.

The good news is Jesus blood is now covering those sins.

J-bird

 2006/7/1 11:45
n7rooivalk7n
Member



Joined: 2006/6/30
Posts: 11
South Africa

 Re:

Some thoughts I want to add:

Logic wrote:

[i][size=xx-small]"I am not saying that Grace is an desereved, but that He gives us free will to depart from him, otherwise it isn't grace nor true love."[/size][/i]

I don't believe that we have a complete free will. Regardless of the choice to sin or not to sin, all humans WILL chose to sin and we are all far from God. Regarding salvation, the bible says that none of us are searching or wanting to get saved. God, from His side died on the cross for our sins and made amazing grace possible. He pulls us towards Him and does the salvation work. "Our choice" doesn't save us, it's God's grace that saves us. True love is Joh3:16, that God would save us through grace and pay the ultimate price, while we were yet hell-deserving sinners. (Rom 5:8)

Logic wrote about Joh 15 that speaks about us abiding in the Lord. It is important to abide in the Lord. God made us to have a relationship with Him. However, there are times when we don't pray and read bible and seek the Lord as we should. That doesn't mean that He cuts us off and sends us to hell immediately.

God gives us the assurance. We CAN know that we WILL go to heaven. We just have to let go and allow Him to do the work in us. Total surrender. If God is not in control, then we run into problems.


_________________
Johann

 2006/7/1 12:28Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

n7rooivalk7n, how are you?

Quote:
I don't believe that we have a complete free will.



I think this is an important point concerning this whole thread. Since you mentioned this, I hope it is alright if I share some opinons on it?

I think we all agree that we have a [b]will[/b]. :-D

What we probably do not agree about(though not only) is the nature of our will, whether it is free, or partialy free, or not free at all.

My opinion is the last one, that our wills are not free at all. The best way I understand to express this is in what Jesus said concerning sin:

Quote:
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.



the Master goes on to say:

Quote:
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.



So, what are we to make of this? I think it would be helpfull to refer here to how the Apostle Paul described himself, after I believe, he had been set free by the Son. He called himself


Quote:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ



According to Strong's this word is

Strong's Ref. # 1401

Romanized doulos
Pronounced doo'-los

from GSN1210; a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):

KJV--bond(-man), servant.

Elsewhere he says that

Quote:
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



So, if we compare these things and take them together, could it be then that the freedom of which our Lord was speaking, was not only, or altogether, or in essence, a freedom to choose, but rather it is the freedom of choosing righteousness?

If I may tread carefully here, I think this is ultimately the [b]only[/b] [i]freedom[/i] a creature can ever have. Consider the glorious liberty of His own Being Who

Quote:
cannot lie



yet will anyone say there is no 'free' will with Him?

Job, during his great afliction said

Quote:
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.



Some thoughts about this,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/7/1 16:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't believe we have comlete free will

I agree.

We don't have the free will of weather or not we WANT to be a sinner or not because were born sinners "concieved in sin." We don't have the free will of weather or not we will sin after we are saved because were still attached to this fallen flesh that WILL sin.

There are a few things that I have learned since I was saved that have been hard lessons. Number one, you cannot judge a persons spiritual stance by weather or not they commit certain sins or even if they CONTINUE to commit these sins.

Number two, you cannot judge a minister who is not doing things the way you think they ought to be done.

WHY?

Because their not for us to judge.

Yes you can have suspicions and doubts but ultimately it's God's territory.

If there is no chastisement then of course their problably not, but how do we know their not being chastised? All we need to do as brothers and sisters is stand in the gap for them. Pray for them to be either saved or restored.

J-bird

 2006/7/1 16:34





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