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 Re:

"Once saved, always saved? Sure! So long as you stay saved!" Keith Daniels preaching in a Baptist Church.

 2006/6/29 14:21
RandyJ
Member



Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
No where in the Bible does it outright say once you are SAVED, you can lose your SALVATION.



"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1st Cor 9:27

"Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2nd Cor 13:5

Now here is a compelling argument. The word "cast away" is the same word as "reprobate". Jesus Christ is in you exept you be "cast away". Paul keeps his body under subjection lest he become "cast away" and "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

"For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:13-14

Now the argument that I would draw from this verse is very simple. James threatens the "brethren" with God's judgement and states very clearly that faith without the works of the law cannot save you. Now it might be argued that "saved" is not talking of salvation but that is ignoring the obvious import of the text for he says "he will have judgement without mercy who hath showed no mercy".

I am possitive that a great many verses could be shown here where persevearance is a condition of salvation. Now it is plain that those passages would be completely meaningless unless there was the possibility of one losing their salvation.


_________________
Randy Steinke

 2006/6/29 14:39Profile









 Re:

"Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the jews and religious proseltyes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, [b]persuaded[/b] them to [b]continue in the grace of God[/b]."

Why would Paul and Barnabas persuade people to "continue in the grace of God" if it were not possible to fall away from the grace of God?

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and [b]exhorting[/b] them to [b]continue in the faith[/b], and that we must through must tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Why would Paul exhort the Church to "continue in the faith" if the only people who fall away from the faith are false converts? If "once saved, always saved" was true, then was Paul encouraging false converts to stay in the Church? Would it not be better for them to fall away then to stay?

It makes no sense for Paul to encourage potential fall aways to continue if only false converts fall away. It makes no sense for Paul to encourage potential fall aways to continue unless those potential fall aways were actual Christians.

Paul exhorted them to continue in the faith because Paul knew that they could literally fall away from the faith.

 2006/6/29 15:24
Ruach34
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing

 Re: Roadsigns message

There is another consideration – and that is the general condition of the church. Our modern day church closely parallels Israel’s history.

Roadsign, i totally agree with this. And the greatest tragedy is that we are pursuing all the 'stuff' in the flesh. Like Israel, we are doing works and calling it salvation, spirit, etc... Is there anybody with this witness in their spirit, that we are like Old Testament Israel, with all their works and services, so are we?

I have not read this whole thread but liked the title and will continue as I can...
thank you all
Rich


_________________
RICH

 2006/6/29 15:38Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: saved - past, present, future?

When do we receive our salvation? Really not till we enter eternity, right? So how can you lose something you don't yet have?

"...firm to the end will be saved." Mk 13:13

Clearly perseverance is required. Many rely on a false sense of eternal destiny when they don't have it.

Do we persevere because we are saved (how else can we persevere but by his saving grace?), or are saved because we persevere?

Rom. 10:9 "...you will be saved"
Eph. 2:5 "You have been saved"


Consider this:

"...hand this man over to Satan so that his sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of our Lord."


just some stray thoughts.........

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/6/29 15:48Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
So if my relationship with my father goes far enough south than at some magical point he is suddenly transformed into a sonless father?


lets say you ahve a son that disown you and hats you never sees you again & you can not find him, You would be a sonless father.

When you die, He will not get your inhatritance.

Quote:
How far will I have to go before it finally happens? Is it different for some people but not others?


Don't try to find out.

Quote:
Can I jump across the line and jump back real quick like and still keep it? Or am I disqualified once I hit the ground on the other side?



[b]Hebrew 6:6[/b] [color=990000]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

 2006/6/29 16:36Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Atonement

Hi everyone.

RandyJ,

Quote:
J-Bird has accepted the common theory that the atonement consisted of a payment of a debt. This teaching is completly absent from the scriptures.



While I do not wish to enter into any prolonged discussion about this issue, I would like to put before us a few verses and the definitions of some words as I think they pertain to the assertion you have made. I hope this will be helpfull for our understanding.

Firstly, the word translated propitiation:

Quote:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood



this is what Strongs says of the word:

Strong's Ref. # 2435

Romanized hilasterion
Pronounced hil-as-tay'-ree-on

neuter of a derivative of GSN2433; an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple):

KJV--mercyseat, propitiation.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines expiate as: 1. To make amends or reparation for; atone: expiate one's sins by acts of penance

it defines reparation as: 1. The act or process of repairing or the condition of being repaired. 2. The act or process of making amends; expiation. 3. Something done or paid to compensate or make amends. 4. reparations. Compensation or remuneration required from a defeated nation as indemnity for damage or injury during a war

Now for Mercyseat. First a passage for context:

Quote:
And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.



Following in this passage are two words, appearing several times:

Sin offering

H2403

khat-taw-aw', khat-tawth'
From H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).

Atonement

H3722

kaw-far'
A primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel: - appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).

Now the connection with the Mecry seat, or lid of covering:

Quote:
And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times



It can be noted here that on either side of this Mercy Seat were

Quote:
two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.



they...

Quote:
shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another



looking...

Quote:
toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.



And this Mercy Seat, or lid of covering, it was...

Quote:
above upon the ark



and in the Ark was...

Quote:
the testimony that I shall give thee.



Which testimony, or Law, had been broken.

Elsewhere the Law says:

Quote:
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.



Elsewhere scripture says that God:

Quote:
repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.



the word translated repay, according to Strongs is

H7999

shaw-lam'
A primitive root; to be safe (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to be (causatively make) completed; by implication to be friendly; by extension to reciprocate (in various applications): - make amends, (make an) end, finish, full, give again, make good, (re-) pay (again), (make) (to) (be at) peace (-able), that is perfect, perform, (make) prosper (-ous), recompense, render, requite, make restitution, restore, reward, X surely.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines reciprocate as: 1. To give or take mutually; interchange. 2. To show, feel, or give in response or return. --intr. 1. To move back and forth alternately. 2. To give and take something mutually. 3. To make a return for something given or done. 4. To be complementary or equivalent.

Paul says that Christ has:

Quote:
...redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:



Another word for us to consider, Purchase. A verse from the Exodus concering the people of God, the Children of Israel

Quote:
Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.



Purchased, according to Strongs

H7069

kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: - attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

Elsewhere the scripture says

Quote:
For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.



and...

Quote:
And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine; Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the Lord.



According to Strongs, the word Ransom is

H3724

ko'-fer
From H3722; properly a cover, that is, (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively a redemption price: - bribe, camphire, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village.

Finally, the scripture says that the Children of God are

Quote:
bought with a price



a

Quote:
purchased possession



and redeemed with

Quote:
the precious blood of Christ



It says that Christ

Quote:
bare our sins in his own body on the tree



and when He had finished said


Quote:
It is finished



or

G5055

tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

This became much longer than I intended :-(


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/6/29 20:54Profile









 Re:

What is the greatest motivator that satan has?

FEAR!!!

FEAR of failure!! FEAR of rejection!! FEAR of the loss of a loved one!! Fear of the loss of SALVATION? If good works are done out of FEAR than are they pure? Paul told Timothy that "God has not given us the spirit of fear". So if something is done out of FEAR it is motivated by a spirit other than Gods.

Fear motivates people to do things either positive or negative. When the nor-epinepherine and dopamine levels in the brain are raised and the "fight or flight" syndrome kicks in the enregy that is driving the body is not a natural bodily function when there is no danger involved. This will eventually cause a malfunction in the normal functions of the body if it is maintained for long periods of time. The mind will begin to dull and the body will begin to retain water. The blood will shunt to the vital organs causing a tingling sensation in the finger tips and extremities due to lack of normal blood flow in the extremities. The eyes will bulge so the person is able to see everything clearly and there will be a hightened state of awareness caused by the many stimulants released into the blood stream by the brain. A person will usaually reach a state of paranoia and the mind will begin to have delusional episodes.

FEAR paralyzes

JESUS

THE PRINCE OF PEACE!!!!

PEACE is a valuable possession
For those with it and for those without it.

Is your ministry motivated by FEAR?
Is your walk motivated by FEAR?
Is your witnessing motivated by FEAR?
Is your daily bible reading motivated by FEAR?
Is your prayer life motivated by FEAR?

If you can answer yes to any of these questions your working for the devil. He has you in bondage and you will never know the true love of Jesus and experience true peace in your life until you learn to let go and let God. You can twist verses to mean what you want them to but you know deep down inside that this is wrong and it is a "doctine of devils". It's all about Jesus.

Salavation is of God. No matter how hard we try we can't save ourselves and can't save others.

FEAR spreads like a disease and effects all those that come in contact with it.
Are you in bondage?
Are you holding others in bondage with your perverted doctrine?

He will rescue from this pit of despair if your WILLING to give it up.

J-bird :-D Once saved always saved baptist ;-)

 2006/6/29 22:31
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

J-bird, just out of curiousity, what do you think of these portions of holy scripture?

Romans 11,

Quote:
21[b]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.[/b] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.



Read the context of these verses for greater understanding... It is absolutly clear Paul is exhorting the gentiles and the natural branch is reffering to Jews....

Also,

Matt. 10,
Quote:
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


the him is clearly reffering to God.

What do you think of these things?


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/6/29 23:16Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
What is the greatest motivator that satan has?

FEAR!!!

What does this have to do with leaving or keeping salvation?

Also,
please Tell me what you think of the comparison I gave to the natural father so ralationship to God and a son of His that leavs.

 2006/6/30 0:57Profile





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