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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is moral perfection possible?

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RandyJ
Member



Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Is moral perfection possible?

Perhaps I can enter into a dicussion on whether or not moral perfection is possible. I advocate the doctrine myself and would perhaps consider some arguments on the contrary. The texts that I will bring to the table are the following:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2nd Cor 6:14-7:1

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God". Heb 6:1

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". 1st John 2:1

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." Romans 6:14-15

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1st Thess 5:23-24

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4

I am sure that there are more but this will have to suffice for now.


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Randy Steinke

 2006/6/25 23:28Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7428
Mississippi

 Re: Is moral perfection possible?

As I would understand perfection, it means agreeing with God when he speaks to you, whether it is asking you do something, or convicts you, or whatever. When you act in total obedience you are acting and being 'perfect' because sin does not reign in your mortal body.

Now to be perfect like God, no. We still need the mercy of God. Luke 1:50: And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. If we would be perfect like God we would have no need for mercy.

What say?

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/6/26 3:10Profile
W_D_J_D
Member



Joined: 2006/1/13
Posts: 119


 Re: Is moral perfection possible?

Yes.

2 Corinthians 7:1

Titus 2:12

ciao!

 2006/6/26 3:19Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

The answer to all three is the word according.

How is the Christian going to be judged?

Answer: Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

How is the Christian established in this earth?

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

How are we to understand our lives as Christians?

2 Timothy 2:7-8 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

According, According to what? According to Paul's Gospel. What is Paul's Gospel?

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

How are we to be by the preaching of Paul's Gospel which no other man in the Word had before or after him. There were 90 recorded writers of the New testament after the Cross, But none but Paul were chosen as the cannon of Gods blessed message, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". Even John got it form Paul, and Peter also.

"that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" According to Paul's Gospel. 1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

In Christ: Phillip



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Phillip

 2006/6/26 19:55Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Is moral perfection possible?

Quote:
Perhaps I can enter into a dicussion on whether or not moral perfection is possible.


Please don't be offended if I say I think this is the wrong question. It must inevitably lead to me examining my own 'progress'. How about these questions...

"Is God able to save to the uttermost those that are coming to Him through Christ?" Heb 7:25

"Is God able to keep me from falling?" Jude 1:24

"Is God able to make all grace abound towards me?" 2 Cor 9:8

If the answer to these questions is 'Yes' then we might ask some additional questions. Is God able to do this for 'one second'? If so, why not two? If two, why not sixty? If for a whole minute, why not two minutes? If two, why not sixty? If for a whole hour, why not two...?

You get my drift?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/6/27 2:38Profile
RandyJ
Member



Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Re: Wow

That's amazing! Did all of you agree with me?

One question for Ginnyrose.

Quote:
Now to be perfect like God, no. We still need the mercy of God. Luke 1:50: And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. If we would be perfect like God we would have no need for mercy.



If it is impossible to be perfect like God is perfect then why does Christ command us to be?
Have you considered this?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Why then do we need God's mercy? First of all I will state the obvious that we would have no need for mercy in the sense of pardon if we stopped sinning altogether. So the mercy spoken of there must be some other extension of God's mercy or kind of mercy. For instance, if God removed the influence of His Spirit then we would all be hooped!!!!!I mean burnt toast!!!!!You know what I mean??? :-o

So it is an act of mercy that God would bestow His Spirit upon us to propel us onward. Also, if we are Christians then no doubt we are still developing and progressing in our outward life. We may be perfect inside and clean ("He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean" John 13:10) and yet needing guidance for the sake of outward conformity. We are imperfect with regard to our outward development and in this sense will always be imperfect for we will experience infinite progression. Wow, now that's a thought!
So if Christ tells us to be perfect like our heavenly Father is perfect and we cannot and will not ever be perfect in the sense of outward conduct and understanding then it follows that Christ is telling us to be perfect in the only sense which is attainable, to wit, moral perfection, perfect obedience to His law or complete conformity to rectitude.

You guys are awesome!!!
And I mean that. I was expecting some kind of lond drawn out dicussion on Romans 7 or something of the sort. By the way what do folks like yourself think of such a passage? Do you you think that a Christian at best is "carnal, sold under sin" or do you think, like the early church, that Romans 7 is descriptive of a man under the law? Or maybe you have never thougth of that. Maybe we could discuss this.

With love in Christ, Randy


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Randy Steinke

 2006/6/27 7:22Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Is moral perfection possible?

Well, if it is not possible, then the words, "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect" are nothing but a cruel joke. The key is, how ar we [b]made[/b] perfect? I believe that many great answers are found in this thread.:-)


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/6/27 8:08Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Is moral perfection possible?

Paul said in Phillipians 3:12,13:

vs 12 "Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I man lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

vs. 13 "Brothers, I do not account myself to have laid hold' but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before, I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward".

---------------

We as bevlivers have been grafted into the Branch of the One who is perfection. We are one with Him in spirit and He is in us and we are in Him. As we abide in the Vine we enjoy the rich supply of the Divine Sap, and through this Sap we bear much fruit.

But this is always conditional upon our abiding in the Vine.

The only perfect One is Christ and we are in Him and He is in us. And day by day as we take the cross, deny our natural life and live by Him we are being transformed into the same imaage from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.

We cannot with Paul say we have obtained. But by the indwelling Divine Life we pursue and as we do we are being perfected in this indweling Divine Life.

Graftedbranch

 2006/6/27 12:42Profile
Abide
Member



Joined: 2004/10/18
Posts: 52


 Re:

I asked myself the same question, and the Spirit of God led me to the answer. One that brought much comfort and assurance. It's heavenly divine.
I will Return.

 2006/6/27 13:44Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

"be ye perfect..."

E.W.Bullinger,a Greek Scholar stated that the word perfect could/should be read as [b]complete[/b].

Romans 7:17-20

" As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Romans 7:24-25

" what a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Had I lived a lifetime of 100% moral perfection, but stumbled for one second, perfection is no longer there.

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Nevertheless, "be ye holy...for I am holy"
Praise The Lord Jesus Christ,
I am nothing, HE IS ALL


 2006/6/27 14:01Profile





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