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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again... Process or Immediate ?

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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
I’m sure that there are many similar stories of how God brought about life after a stillbirth. I’d love to hear them.



Diane,

I think that it is the unspoken requirement of membership around here, to have similar testimony.:cry:


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/7/3 7:30Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I disagree that "Birth" begins in the womb. I believe that their are many who are "heavily convicted" in the "womb of repentance", who never "humble themselves" by "turning toward Christ".



Amen! I believe the birth doesn't begin until the convert is pushed through the womb. But I believe the 'type' of womb one is birthed through is absolutely integral.

Great soulwinners like Charles Finney understood this. This is why they had "anxious benches" back in the day, where sinners under heavy conviction would groan in agony over protracted periods of time. The preacher would call them forward and they would just travail at the anxious bench as God was birthing them.

Sometimes it would take several hours. The Holy Spirit would deal with the individual sinner, bringing him or her under such great conviction and agony that it was not unlike like a woman going through true childbirth. Finney would just let them stay there and go through the labor pains. And when the birth finally came, it was glorious. Hardly any of these converts backslid; no one had teach them holiness or exhort them to not chew tobacco or get drunk. I've heard accounts that over 80% of Finney's converts went to the mission field. Ravenhill's ministry produced similiar accounts. Ravenhill believed like Finney, that the new birth was a slow and painful process, and that anyone who could speak of their new birth and not recall pain and despair during the process, well...was probably still dead in sin.

I think that when we talk about the womb preceeding birth, we have to understand the difference between being "awakened" and being under "Holy Ghost conviction." I believe the two are radically different. Whereas the former is purely emotional (which I believe makes up for the majority of the so-called conversions we see in churches and crusades nowadays), the latter is genuine, wrought by God's supernatural intervention. I think the genuine new birth is the most mysterious thing this side of heaven! Even Jesus didn't go into detail - He just likened it unto the unpredictable blowing of the wind. Men like Ravenhill and Bakht Singh doubted that more than 2 percent of professing Christians were truly born-again of the Holy Spirit! I used to scoff at statements like these, but now I'm beginning to see what these old saints meant. Many are called, yet few are chosen. This is very frightening.


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Paul Frederick West

 2006/7/3 8:42Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

God does not birth stillborns, nor is God the Father an abortionist. God our Father is not a Parent that neglects His Children. Likened unto our physical birth, if we have a good mother and father, we grow into adulthood, but life depends on obedience. If a child does not obey his parents, he will suffer and wind up a child in prison or on drugs of worse. The same goes for Gods birthed children, if we don't listen and learn by the Word and the Christ Spirit and Mind that is in us, being taught by the Holy Spirit, we wind up the same as our natural birth counterparts. But God is true and a gracious Parent, He will never forsake us or turn His back on us. He even birthed His Son in us that we would have the only chance of becoming true son's of God, by His Nature that is in Christ Jesus or new life and Lord.

It is not up to the child in the womb to be born, and there is no disbelief when the child is born, we know that by the first breath and sound we make. It takes God, our mother's and father's to give birth to a child, just like it takes God, the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to give us rebirth, one physical and one spiritual and even future physical new birth. The only difference in our first birth and second birth is we have to believe that God is now our Father by Jesus Christ in us and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Then the process of Birth is out of our hands. If God wants children in His house, is it not up to Him whom He will birth.

Once birthed into sin the spirit of Satan is our life and the soul and flesh will die in complete separation from God. Once birthed by God in Christ Jesus the soul will never die and we will get a new body just like Jesus Christ. In God's perfect timing, so shall we forever be with the Lord. The Spirit of Christ, our spirit, the soul redeemed and being taught by the Holy Spirit to be likened unto this Christ that is now our Spirit, renewed to the new man, the new creature, the old man cast down and never to appear again. The old man is gone but the memories of him in our mind must be renewed to the New Mind of Christ that we now possess. I used to be Carl P. Peterson, Now I am Carl P. Peterson Christ, don't get all upset, no Not Jesus Christ, But Phillip Christ, and God even has a new name written on a white rock just for me.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/3 14:48Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
God does not birth stillborns, nor is God the Father an abortionist. God our Father is not a Parent that neglects His Children. Likened unto our physical birth, if we have a good mother and father, we grow into adulthood, but life depends on obedience.



So what you are saying is that the reason why people lose children during childbirth, is that they are bad parents? I hope your not, but I also hope that you can se the logic behind this statement.

Phillip, I am wondering if you believe in the existence of "conterfeigt conversion"? Because this is the "still birth" tat I am refering to. The "abortionists" are "unskilled evangelists" who don't know the dangers of presenting the "pearl of great price" to and unbroken "swine" heart. True, God is not "anegligent parent", however in His wisdom, He often entrusts delivery of His children to "spiritual midwives" (aka, evangelists).

I hate to tell you this, but repentance isn't a garantee of salvation, and neither is "faith in Christ". It is only when "repentance leads to faith" that the Spiri imparts life. One can repent to "benevolence", as a "liberal Chritian" would, or "accept Christ" without repentance from dead works, and have "salvation" that isn't worth the money spent on the "decision card" that they fill out.

Siritual Birth requires "inhalation of the Holy Spirit". This is impossible without repenting of our allegeince to the world's philosophy and actions.

The embarking on the "process" is the "spiritual equivelent" to the baby's cry as the midwife spanks it's rear. It is evidence that the birth has occured. The two are unmistakably linked, and cannot be separated. We can discuss somantics of "what happens when", but the fact is that Christ said that we shall "know them by their fruit". Fruit cannot be seen without the process.


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/7/4 10:11Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

The still born in this world are a, is a physical thing that is a very deep trauma for those involved. I cry even when a kitten is still born. Making parents responsible for a still born is a cheap trick of the devil. That is most certainly not what I was speaking of. We are speaking of God and His new birth in the believer, not and earthly tragedy. If a believer is born from above, it is a born again experience of God not man.

There is no counterfeit conversion with God. There is man made conversions, but they have nothing to do with God. God allows abortion to show that man kills his own and that includes false believers, the anti-Christ.

How can anyone repent from dead works that doesn't even know what to repent of. True repentance comes from God revealing in the believer sins that we don't even know we have. Repentance is a works salvation in itself, so is water baptism, so is attendance at church, and on and on. You are speaking in earthly salvation terms and that is only salvation unto their earthly father the devil.

The faith of Christ is the only faith that is of God, all else is believing the chair won't break.

Spiritual Birth requires God, not man. Evidence of Spiritual is true repentance after conversion the rebirth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

The Fruit is from the Tree of Light Himself. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".

In Christ: PHillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/4 11:36Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Spiritual Birth requires God, not man. Evidence of Spiritual is true repentance after conversion the rebirth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

The Fruit is from the Tree of Light Himself. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".



Phillip,

What you are describing is a PROCESS. You are saying the same thing tht I have been saying, while at the same time, denying the process. Salvation that does not lead to a process is [b]countefeigt conversion[/b] (ie, a [b]man-made[/b] replica of the real, that looks good, but [b]God is conspicuouly absent[/b]).


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/7/4 18:03Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
What you are describing is a PROCESS. You are saying the same thing tht I have been saying, while at the same time, denying the process. Salvation that does not lead to a process is countefeigt conversion (ie, a man-made replica of the real, that looks good, but God is conspicuouly absent).



This is exactly on target. Salvation leads to a process. And that process is also salvation. NOt eternal salvation, but salvation daily from sin, from self, from Satan, and from the world.

The New Birth is the beginning of a process. Not the process of the New Birth. But the New Birth is the beginning of the process. Just as beng born physically is the beginning of a process.

What is the process? It is sanctification, renewing, transformation, conformation, and finally transfiguration.

The New Birth brings the Life of God into us regenerating our spirit. From our spirit, the Spirit renews our mind, our will, and our emotions through daily taking the cross, denying self and being constituted with the Life of Christ.

And It issues in conformation to the First born Son of God as Christ is formed within us.

And ultimatly at the Lord's return, these mortal bodies will also be transigured and conformed to the resurrected body of our Lord. We shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is.

The new birth is the entrance into this process. It is a process of growth in the Divine Life, not unto the Divine Life.

It is a process of the growth of the Divine Life from within our regenerated spirit, renewing, saturating, sanctifying, and forming Christ in us.

And ultimatly this process will issue in our glorification.

This is the gospel and the salvation of the New Testament.

the New Birth is the beginning, not the goal. It is what brings the Life of God into us and begins this wonderful process which will be conpleted at our Lord's return.

Graftedbranch

 2006/7/4 21:57Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

Yes gentlemen the process started 35 years ago and when Christ was born again in me it was all of Him I would ever get. The Holy Spirit did not come in parts and pieces either, He was total also at baptism into Him sent by the Father and prayed for by Jesus Christ, that He would be in us forever. New Spirit totally Perfect in every way, The Spirit of Christ birthed in me. The Holy Spirit Teacher of this mystery. Thats why "he that is born from above cannot commit sin". It is not me but Him that makes me perfect, I am just learning this from the Holy Spirit. My mind is being renewed to the Mind of Christ. I have stumbled and fell, and the One who started the work in me has not and will not let me down, the more I trust in Him the more I learn of Him. I have to do it, but He give the desire and want to do it His way. The Love I now have for God the Father and My Savior Jesus Christ and the knowledge imparted from the Holy Spirit is of God, not of me.

Tiptoe around it all you want but it is God who is the nature of Himself in Christ that is in us and Only He will make us perfect as His Son is, if we see it and want it and allow it by His unction and union with us.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I will praise Him all the day long forever for what He has done, and by Him I receive all the reward I need, that is the desire of My Heart and that is to Love Him, that He might be able to know the Love of Christ in me and receive it back just as He gave it. That is happening and will be perfected one day when I stand before Him and am judged by Paul's Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

For now to Him "who is able to establish me", "I press on toward the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Established In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/5 0:23Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

G.B. Wrote:

Quote:

"This is exactly on target. Salvation leads to a process. And that process is also salvation. NOt eternal salvation, but salvation daily from sin, from self, from Satan, and from the world."

We are already eternally delivered in Christ, we are being delivered in our soul, and we will be delivered in body.

Salvation is deliverance. 2 Corinthians 1:9-13 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: ((Who delivered us))??? from so great a death,and ((doth deliver:))??? in whom we trust that ((He will yet deliver))??? us; Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf. For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

Already delivered in Christ being delivered in the Holy Spirit and will be delivered When the Father gives us a new Body Like His.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/5 0:52Profile
WorldView
Member



Joined: 2006/7/10
Posts: 94
Davao, Philippines

 Re:

After reading everyone's posts I find myself in the position of trying to simplify the subjects that everyone has ended up complicating.

I see so many people write replies that are so deep that they never truely address the subject at hand.

That is one of the things that turn people off to Christianity. We complicate the simple matters, thus authoring confusion amongst the body. Harsh, but true.

Keith


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Keith

 2006/7/10 2:54Profile





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