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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Trying to Tread Tenderly

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Christinyou wrote:

Quote:
Nobody likes to think of Satan as their husband but that is exactly what he is to the children of disobedience. He is their prince.


Could you show in Scripture where you get that we were merried to Satan?

Quote:
Praise God through Christ Jesus we are divorced from our first husband and married to our new Husband Jesus Christ

Scripture sais that we are dead to sin, not divorced.

Remember that divorce is only aloud when there is infedelity.
[b]Matthew 19:9[/b] [color=990000]And I tell you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except her fornication, and marries another woman, commits adultery."[/color]

Quote:
Phillip, I see it is possible to make the statement Logic quoted, but, it is not quite biblical language.


What do you mean "biblical language"?

Quote:
Although many would admit to having fellowship with sin and death before they were saved,


κοινωνία - koinōnia - koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
I've never have had fellowship with Satan, but I was in his grips.

 2006/6/21 21:47Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

"""Scripture sais that we are dead to sin, not divorced.

Remember that divorce is only aloud when there is infedelity.
Matthew 19:9 And I tell you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except her fornication, and marries another woman, commits adultery." """

There was no divorce for infidelity, they were stoned or died from the test of infidelity.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/22 3:29Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

Ephesians 5:11-15 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

      11. unfruitful works of darkness--Sins are terminated in themselves, and therefore are called "works," not "fruits" (Ga 5:19,22). Their only fruit is that which is not in a true sense fruit (De 32:32), namely, "death" (Ro 6:21; Ga 6:8). Plants cannot bear "fruit" in the absence of light. Sin is "darkness," and its parent is the prince of darkness (Eph 6:12)Ephesians 6:11-12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places..
Graces, on the other hand, as flourishing in "the light," are reproductive, and abound in fruits; which, as harmoniously combining in one whole, are termed (in the singular) "the FRUIT of the Spirit" (Eph 5:9).

The devil did not make me do it. He is the progenitor of all that I can do that is evil. Fellowship unfruitful works of darkness. Fellowship in this scripture is: 4790. sugkoinoneo
Search for G4790 in KJVSL
sugkoinwnew sugkoinoneo soong-koy-no-neh'-o

from 4862 and 2841; to share in company with, i.e. co-participate in:--communicate (have fellowship) with, be partaker of.


Our nature before The Cross of Christ was Satan nature, not God nature. Satan nature came from believing Satan and not God even though it was a lie. All mankind then became Satan natured. At believing unto salvation, Satan nature out and God nature in, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/22 4:15Profile









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly


Logic asked

Quote:
dorcas had said: Phillip, I see it is possible to make the statement Logic quoted, but, it is not quite biblical language.

What do you mean "biblical language"?

I mean that scripture never refers to man as married to Satan.

I believe this is because he is a fallen spirit, and we are flesh and blood. His appearances as a serpent, or as an angel of light, are transformations of appearance but, he has no soul or flesh as we do.

Whereas, God could call Israel His bride, because of the forthcoming Messiah to whom He desired Israel to be married. Spiritually, there does have to be a death, as you pointed out, but I see where Phillip gets his 'divorce' idea, in that the Adversary is still alive, though powerless to influence the receipt of eternal life by believers.

Now that God's Son, Jesus the Messiah - the Word made Flesh - has conquered death - abolished death - we no longer need have fellowship with death, as we did when we were 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Eph 2:1, 2). He partook of flesh and blood, though. That is very important. Having been made in God's image originally, we are being restored to His image as we abide in Him through the Spirit. This is fellowship with the Father and with the Son. This is fellowship with Life Himself.

I do choose the word 'fellowship' deliberately, because we were completely cut off from fellowship with God, while we were still spiritually dead. There is a helpful picture in Romans 6 (Young)

4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.

5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;


Here is a Greek interlinear: (this translation says '[u]from among[/u] the dead', which I think brings an aspect of His resurrection to us).

4 sunetafhmen (5648) {WE WERE BURIED} oun {THEREFORE} autw {WITH HIM} dia tou {BY} baptismatoV {BAPTISM} eiV ton {UNTO} qanaton {DEATH} ina {THAT} wsper {AS} hgerqh (5681) {WAS RAISED UP} cristoV {CHRIST} ek {FROM AMONG [THE]} nekrwn {DEAD} dia {BY} thV {THE} doxhV {GLORY} tou {OF THE} patroV {FATHER,} outwV {SO} kai {ALSO} hmeiV {WE} en {IN} kainothti {NEWNESS} zwhV {OF LIFE} peripathswmen (5661) {SHOULD WALK.} 5 ei {IF} gar {FOR} sumfutoi {CONJOINED} gegonamen (5754) {WE HAVE BECOME} tw {IN THE} omoiwmati {LIKENESS} tou {OF} qanatou {DEATH,} autou {HIS} alla {SO} kai {ALSO} thV {OF HIS} anastasewV {RESURRECTION} esomeqa (5704) {WE SHALL BE;}

The word 'conjoined' is similar to intercourse. Then, there is this from Tyndale, which keeps a picture which appears in other parts of the New Testament, similar to Young's 'planted', but perhaps even more powerful.

"We are buried with him by baptism for to die that likewise as Christ was raised up from death by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in a new life. For if we be [b]graft[/b] in death like unto him, even so must we be in the resurrection."

This 'graft' analogy plays into the picture of the Vine (John 15), and the olive tree (Romans 9). If we abide in the Vine (Christ) we bear fruit. If we were 'graft' into death, then, we were having a type of fellowship with it, however unwillingly. Now, we have been cut off from death, and grafted into the Tree of Life.

With regard to the spiritual nature of sin, too, we were having fellowship with death, before we were freed from it into fellowship with Life. I see these (though you may disagree) as helpful ways to understand the real issues when choosing against sin.

 2006/6/22 4:45
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Christinyou wrote:

Quote:
Our nature before The Cross of Christ was Satan nature, not God nature. Satan nature came from believing Satan and not God even though it was a lie. All mankind then became Satan natured. At believing unto salvation, Satan nature out and God nature in, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.


Our nature before The Cross of Christ was a spiritually dead and soulish nature, not a Satan nature.

We all are born spiritually dead and therefore we are all soulish in nature. Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord and no longer soulish. Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. It is the soul that we battle everyday, who will rule? Will it be our soulish passion to walk after the flesh, or will it be our spirit, to life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death?
[b]Romans 8:4[/b] [color=990000]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]
Quote:
We are dead to our first husband, which is Satan and him killing us by the Law. Christ is our new husband, and there is no adultry from the first husband.


Do you think that I thought this?

It was a quote from Christinyou and I was responding to it to show a better way of seeing who the husband is in Romans 7:2-3.

But, if you knew this, sorry for the missunderstanding.

 2006/6/22 10:30Profile









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

Logic asked:

Quote:
Do you think that I thought this?

It was a quote from Christinyou and I was responding to it to show a better way of seeing who the husband is in Romans 7:2-3.

But, if you knew this, sorry for the missunderstanding.

It's ok. I realised you were quoting Phillip. My previous post was more in answer to your comment that you had never 'had fellowship with Satan' and your request for an explanation of 'biblical language'.

Whereas Phillip thinks of the relationship with the author of sin, as a marriage, I tend to think of it as fellowship with death rather than life. I find plenty in scripture to support my thinking (I believe...).

Quote:
Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord and [b]no longer soulish[/b]. Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner.

I heard this preached many years ago, and it crops up regularly on the SI forums. As I've said before, I don't agree - after many years of trying to make it work.

Our wills rule what we do, not our souls. The will of the flesh has been subdued to the will of the Spirit, inasfaras we are prepared to put our will behind, or, tune it into, God's will - revealed to us or prompted to us by the Holy Spirit.

The rest of the time, if we are baptised into Christ's death, then our living is simply that - living. It is not sinful, nor is it a battle with the soul.

I believe the soul is what God is trying to save. We are to [i]love[/i] God with [b]all our soul[/b]. Our soul will be the sum substance of all our choosing to do His will, and the character which that has worked in us through our obedience and the help of the Holy Spirit.

If we spend our days trying to destroy our souls and honestly believing it is our enemy - and God's enemy - how can we bear fruit of the Spirit? How is the 'inner man' being strengthened by knowing His love? (Eph 3)

I am not trying to take from you a belief system which works for you, but, how can you and your soul be on different sides of the argument?

 2006/6/22 11:01
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

dorcas wrote:

Quote:
I tend to think of it as fellowship with death rather than life.

I like that, may I also use this as my own?
Quote:
Our wills rule what we do, not our souls.


I am saying is that our will stems from our soul.

It is from our soul that we get our will and emotions or feelings.
[b]Proverbs 4:23[/b] [color=990000]Keep thy [u]heart[/u] with all diligence; [b]for out of it are the issues of life.[/b][/color]

Hebrew 3820 for heart:
לב
lêb
labe
A form of H3824; [b]the heart[/b]; also used (figuratively) very widely for the [b]feelings, [u]the will[/u][/b] and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything.

I would think that we coud say that the haert is also our soul.

In this Proverb, it tells us to keep our haert.
How would one go about keeping it, if it is our feelings and our will?

We must keep it by the spirit that God brings to life in us that is in accord with HIS Spirit.

That is how we are new creations, by haveing a new spirit.
Inturn we are actualy diferent people altogether.

Quote:
I believe the soul is what God is trying to save. We are to love God with all our soul. Our soul will be the sum substance of all our choosing to do His will, and the character which that has worked in us through our obedience and the help of the Holy Spirit.


I agree totaly.

Quote:
If we spend our days trying to destroy our souls and honestly believing it is our enemy - and God's enemy - how can we bear fruit of the Spirit? How is the 'inner man' being strengthened by knowing His love? (Eph 3)



Not destroy, but keep under.
[b]Eph 3:16-17[/b] [color=990000]That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit [b]in the inner man[/b];
[b]:17[/b] That Christ may dwell [b]in your hearts[/b] by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [/color]

This "inner man" is our spirit since the word heart is used in verse 17.
If it is the same, He wouldn't have made a difrence in term.

Paul would have said, "be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man that Christ may dwell therein".

But, since We are to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in our own spirits we would be able to control our own souls that Christ may be in our thoughts and feelings in which our souls rule.

Quote:
If we spend our days trying to destroy our souls and honestly believing it is our enemy - and God's enemy



[b]James 4:4[/b] [color=990000]Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is [b]the enemy of God.[/b][/color]
We were Gods' enemy before we were saved and soulish, being spiritualy dead.
As we are born again, as I said, we rule our souls by our spirits that are mande alive.
[b]1Corinth 6:17[/b] [color=990000]But he who is joined to the Lord is one with Him in spirit.[/color]
Quote:
but, how can you and your soul be on different sides of the argument?


Say the soul is neutral.
Before we were saved, it was serving the flash to sin.
[b]Romans 8:3[/b] [color=990000]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/color]

When we becacme born again, the soul is now serving our spirits unto good works.

[b]Ephesians 2:10[/b] [color=990000]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/color]

 2006/6/22 12:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

The mind, will and emotions are the soul, the learning center of our being. The Spirit is our life, and of course our flesh is the body.

Do you believe in the tripartite being of man. That is body, soul and spirit? This is the is the three in one, the same as God, Three in One.

God has chosen to work in this arrangement that He created from the beginning. The Father is the Seed giver, the Son is the Seed, The Holy Spirit is the Life of the Seed. Then we are saved in spirit by the Spirit of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in us. We are being save in our soul by the Holy Spirit, by the renewing of our minds, by our Teacher the Comforter. We will be saved in body when we get our new one which is just like Christ and His body. That is why Paul can say; 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; What was dead to God? Our spirit, which is not alive unto God by the Spirit of Christ that is born again in us, the Seed of the Father. In our spirit having been saved by the Spirit of Christ in us, we must learn and this is the,"doth deliver" Part, we are being delivered in soul, our mind will and emotions, our learning center, which is controlled by the Holy Spirit teacher in renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ that is already in us by His Spirit. Then of course the body, and will He "Yet deliver".

This is why the Word of God separates the soul and spirit and body. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The old testament was all soul salvation, that is repent, keep the Law, and your soul will be saved. The New testament is Spirit Salvation, with the soul being renewed, "Baptized into one Spirit, with the Mind of Christ, and the Holy Spirit teaching us all things.

Old Testament:
Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of [such as were] oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors [there was] power; but they had no comforter.

Lam 1:9 Her filthiness [is] in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified [himself].

Lam 1:16 For these [things] I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.

The had no comforter.

New Testament:
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, (((He shall teach you all things,))) and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

All things to your minds remembrance, whatsoever I have said. The Holy Spirit shall teach.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Comforter which is the Holy Spirit is with us and in us, "baptized into the Holy Spirit", forever and teaches us all things about Jesus Christ, where do we learn? In our Soul, with the Spirit mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit teaching us about Him, renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ.

That ye may know"

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Col 4:6 Let your speech [be] always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Look up the phrase "that ye may know" In the old testament when He, the Comforter was not there, they new nothing.

In the New Testament The Comforter teaches us all things into our soul which is learning to match His Spirit that is in us. The Spirit of Christ that we are born again from above into.

If we don't separate the way God deals with His Children, that is by, Spirit Soul and Body, It is impossible to rightly divide the Word of God.

Saved in Spirit, being Saved in Soul and will be Saved in Body.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/22 16:12Profile









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

Logic said

Quote:
dorcas had said: I tend to think of it as fellowship with death rather than life.

I like that, may I also use this as my own?

Of course. I find it a better way of explaining the spiritual aspect of other religions, especially those which appear to have a supernatural content, such a spirutalism and the occult. The issue is not whether there is a hierarchy of other spirits, but the origin of those spirits, whom they serve and what they minister.

Quote:
I am saying is that our will stems from our soul.

There was a recent devotional from OChambers which touched on will, and I felt he had captured the truth of my experience very well. I'll try to find it and post it later.

The thing is, if will is IN the soul, then by what can the soul be controlled?

I don't have a problem accepting that what the will wills, affects the soul, whether by a choice which brings it deeper into line with God's will, or by taking it further from God's will, but, I don't see how the [i]entire[/i] will can be soulish, and not also a function of the spirit of a man - what he thinks and wants and how he complies with other pressures, such as his bodily needs and responsibilities to others.

I agree that the desires of the soul - say, towards some act of self-indulgence - or to hear a certain type of music - or to eat a certain type of food - may well influence the will; but, I maintain that a man is capable of choosing completely against, or for, what his soul desires; or of tempering his choice according to the will of God, or the Spirit's prompting, when these apply.

 2006/6/23 12:48









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

Quote:
I would think that we coud say that the haert is also our soul.

Hmmm. Rather, I'd say that by knowing what is in our hearts, we can tell something about the condition of our soul (and its salvation).

Here is Matthew's take on 'heart':

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the [b]pure[/b] in heart
For they shall [b]see[/b] God.

Matthew 5:28
"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to [b]lust[/b] for her has already committed [b]adultery[/b] with her in his heart.

Matthew 6:21
"For where your [b]treasure[/b] is, there your heart [b]will[/b] be also.

Matthew 9:4
But Jesus, [u]knowing their thoughts[/u], said, "Why do you [b]think evil[/b] in your hearts?

Matthew 11:29
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am [b]gentle and lowly[/b] in heart, and you [u]will find rest for your souls[/u].

Matthew 12:34
"Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the [b]mouth speaks[/b].

Matthew 12:35
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the [b]evil treasure[/b] brings forth evil things.

Matthew 13:15
For the hearts of this people have grown [b]dull[/b].
Their ears are [b]hard of hearing[/b],
And their [b]eyes[/b] they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should [b]understand[/b] with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.'

Matthew 13:19
"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who [b]received seed[/b] by the wayside.

Matthew 15:8
'These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.

Matthew 15:18
"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they [b]defile[/b] a man.

Matthew 15:19
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, [b]murders[/b], adulteries, [b]fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies[/b].

Matthew 18:35
"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not [b]forgive[/b] his brother his trespasses."

Matthew 19:8
He said to them, "Moses, because of the [b]hardness[/b] of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said to him, " 'You shall [b]love[/b] the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'


It seems there is much in common between the heart and the soul, but in Matt 22:37, Jesus gives them [u]each[/u] a full place. This definitely separates them sufficiently to warrant further study.


1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


John is strong on the concept of keeping ourselves, and here, of being able to purify ourselves. This implies the will is not controlled by only the soul. The will is able to overcome the effect of demonic opposition. (See how Legion ran and worshipped Jesus. Mark 5:6)

1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart.

 2006/6/23 13:01





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