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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Trying to Tread Tenderly

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 Trying to Tread Tenderly


Beloved brethren, I hope I'm not being oversensitive with the title of this thread. This is not my school ma'am voice either. I'm aware I'm treading on tender ground, and all I'm asking is that you read this introduction carefully, and think about it. Maybe no-one will post here, but, I still want to share what is on my heart, and I hope it will be a blessing to some.


It seems clear to me, having been a person who was overcome with confusion every time she opened scripture (once upon a time), to now be gradually getting a grasp of its power to bring me closer to God's heart and mind, that whatever is 'wrong' with the Bible we have now, God is not overcome by its defficiencies. He still makes it work, and uses it immeasurably to communicate Truth to us.


Knowing it is only three days since a thread was locked, which had discussed textual matters with increasing circularity, it is with a certain amount of trepidation I post.

I see that the examination of a text can be removed right out of the realm of the Spirit; or, that one can acknowledge the witness of the Spirit to truth which God ministers through [i][b]His[/b][/i] illumination of that which is written.

I am talking about that [i]mystical[/i] ministry of Truth to each individual, which God (by the Spirit) is able to bring through His written word, which often, we struggle to improve upon when we try share in our own words, what we have heard or seen.... ideas, which are tricky to phrase, [i][b]because of[/i][/b] our [u]previous lack[/u] of understanding.

I believe it is important for each believer to be able to communicate what God is showing them, because (I believe) receiving insight and communicating it is important to our growth - both individuals and the whole Body... the attempt has to be made. To make it easier, we often resort to familiar language, but that may give a false impression of what we really mean.

Let me illustrate this with a word picture.

I have a diamond, which has been cut a certain way. But, it is flawed. Not only that, but, it is not brilliantly white. It is golden. I like it because it's different, but, when the light shines through it, it always shows up the flaw and that it is golden. However, it's flat surface flashes beautifully, just the way it is supposed to. You could say that part is like a mirror on the outside. Nevertheless, it [u]is[/u] [b]a prism[/b]. There is a lot more to it than its polished surface.

Now, just suppose, every time the light shone through my diamond, it destroyed a tiny bit of the flaw, and made it disappear completely and permanently. That would wonderful! I would have it standing in the light all day long. But gradually, as I looked at it day after day, it would not be the diamond I started with, it would be a [i]better[/i] diamond! Moreover, the way the light danced off the flaw would be changing all the time, till eventually, the light would be able to penetrate unhindered, till it glanced off the farthest facets which are supposed to give it its sparkle.


Now, that is what happens to us as we read scripture - if we could say our lives are like prisms...... The Light enters and affects what we [i]see[/i] - [b]our comprehension[/b] - and what is seen in us - [b]our witness to His presence[/b].

By the time [i]we[/i] are releasing that light, it has been changed into a spectrum, though none of the light is truly lost. Some of it has been redirected depending on how it bounces off or through the densities it encounters.

In this 'picture' of THE Light being able to transform permanently the prism through which it passes, we have an ever-changing but never inaccurate nor untrue representation of how God speaks to our lives through the word, by which we are not the same afterwards - even if we can never explain fully how we have been changed.

End of preamble.

Now, I want to say something about Tyndale's (1534) New Testament, which has been put into modern English spelling by the man named below.

'David Daniell is Emeritus Professor of English in the University of London. He is the author of [u]William Tyndale: A Biography[/u], and the editor of [u]Tyndale's Old Testament[/u].' [i](Note taken from the back cover.)[/i]

Tyndale's New Testament
1989 Yale University Press, New Haven and London. Reprinted 1995

ISBN 0-300-04419-4 (hbk)
ISBN 0-300-06580-9 (pbk)


I do not wish to discuss the implications of the verse I'm quoting, for the discussion currently going on in 'Marriage, Divorce, ReMarrige - Toward a Biblical Perspective', nor to raise again which manuscript Tyndale may have been using. If you want to discuss either of these other aspects, please join the thread aforementioned where I shall be posting Romans 7:1 - 6 later, or, start a new thread to discuss which Greek Tyndale used. Thank you.


What I am more interested in, is that Tyndale has translated Paul's argument as one continuous train of logical exposition. This is the [i]first[/i] time I have read Romans 7:1 and it has made perfect sense in context of both the preceding chapter, and the verses which follow it.

You may laugh, but when I read

'the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth' (KJV)....

I always think that is [i]obvious[/i] - if the man is dead, of course the law has no dominion over him.

But, that [u]doesn't make sense in the context[/u], because Paul is writing about the [b]law[/b] being dead - [i]not[/i] the man.

Here's Tyndale's rendering or Romans 7:1.

Remember ye not brethren (I speak to them that know the law) how that [u]the law hath power over a man as long as [b]it endureth[/b][/u]?


Isn't that interesting?

Now, I do have one more question.

Do you agree that this makes [i][b]more[/b][/i] sense of the context?

 2006/6/19 10:20
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

Editrd:
dorcas wrote:

Quote:
What I am more interested in, is that Tyndale has translated Paul's argument as one continuous train of logical exposition. This is the first time I have read Romans 7:1 and it has made perfect sense in context of both the preceding chapter, and the verses which follow it.

Tyndale's rendering:
Chapter 7
1 Remember ye not brethren (I speake to them yt know the lawe) how that the lawe hath power over a man as longe as [b]it endureth[/b]?
Wyclifs' rendering:
Chapter 7
1 Britheren, whethir ye knowun not; for Y speke to men `that knowen the lawe; for the lawe hath lordschip in a man, as long tyme as [b]it lyueth[/b]?

Quote:
But, that doesn't make sense in the context, because Paul is writing about the law being dead - not the man.


Not exactly, it say she is bound by [b]the law [u]to[/u] her husband[/b].
Her husband is not the law, but it is the element that binds her to him.

Furthermore, The Law will never pass away as Jesus said.
[b]Matthew 5:18[/b] [color=990000]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/color]
[b]Matthew 24:35[/b] [color=990000] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.[/color]

The word endure is a bad rendering fo the Greek ζάω - zaō, dzah'-o: [b]to live.[/b]
for a couple of reasons:
Law does not die, so it does not make sence to say, "as long as it lives.
And
Endure is not zaō, but it is eather three other greek words; πρόσκαιρος - proskairos, pros'-kahee-ros: endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
or
ὑπομένω - hupomenō, hoop-om-en'-o: persevere, abide, endure.
or
μένω - menō, men'-o: abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry

 2006/6/19 17:26Profile









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

Quote:

Remember ye not brethren (I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath power over a man as long as it endureth?


Isn't that interesting?

Now, I do have one more question.

Do you agree that this makes more sense of the context?

very interesting, dorcas.

something I did just notice is the word 'he' there in verse 7:1 isnt showing up in my TR...almost like it was an added word (as we see often in tranlation).

I also see some of the other commentators using 'it liveth' instead of "he liveth', meaning the law, not the man...

Was the word 'he' added there to the text showing the man when it was meant to show the law ("It") ?

Quote:

"As long as he liveth" - [b]The Greek here may mean either “as he liveth,” or” as it liveth,” that is, the law.[/b] But our translation has evidently expressed the sense. The sense is, that death releases a man from the laws by which he was bound in life. It is a general principle, relating to the laws of the land, the law of a parent, the law of a contract, etc. This general principle the apostle proceeds to apply in regard to the Law of God.
-Barnes



[b]As long as he liveth?[/b] - Or, as long as It liveth; law does not extend its influence to the dead, nor do abrogated laws bind. It is all the same whether we understand these words as speaking of a law abrogated, so that it cannot command; or of its objects being dead, so that it has none to bind. In either case the law has no force.
-Clarke


================
"liveth; for the word "liveth" [b]may refer either to man or to the law[/b]. The law may be said to live, when it is in full force, and to be dead, when it is abrogated and disannulled; now whilst it lives, or is in force, it has dominion over a man; it can require and command obedience of him, and in case of disobedience can condemn him, and inflict punishment on him: and this power it has also as long as the man lives who is under it, but when he is dead it has no more dominion over him; then "the servant is free from his master", Job_3:19; that is, from the law of his master; and children are free from the law of their parents, the wife from the law of her husband, and subjects from the law of their prince. This is so clear a point that none can doubt of it. The Jews have a saying (d), that

"when a man is dead, he becomes חפשי מן תורה ומן המצות, free from the law, and from the commands.''
-Gill



Honestly, it does make sense given the context of the passage.
Im not doubting the bible translators or anything...but it is interesting...

 2006/6/19 17:26
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

My personal translation of Romans 7:1:

Or do you not know brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is ruling over man as long as he is living.

The verb "Ze" (from Zoe) is a Present Active Indicative, 3rd person singular. In Greek, 3rd person singular verbs can apply to "he/she/it," with the gender being determined by context. As it is grammatically speaking, the word even for law (nomos) is a masculine word along with man (antrhopos). The word "he" is not added, for it is included in the fact the verb is 3rd person singular, which by definition must speak of somebody or something.

Who has died here in this context? In this context "you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ." (v.4) We died to the dominion of the Law THROUH the body of Christ, whom we were united to in death. Having died with Christ, we are no longer bound to what the Law says, for it no longer has jurisdiction over we who have died. Since Christ was raised from the dead, we who were raised with Him through our union with Him, are free to live the life He has, one in the Spirit.

The Law is never described as dying. On the contrary, it is describe as being the instrument through which death comes as a judgment upon sin (Romans 7:7-12).


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Jimmy H

 2006/6/19 18:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly

Hi Linn,

ROM 7:1 Starts back in Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are dead to our first husband, which is Satan and him killing us by the Law. Christ is our new husband, and there is no adultry from the first husband.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

We no longer liveth. We were crucified with Christ and baptized into His death. We are dead to the law and Satan. We now live unto our new Husband, which is Christ. Married to another.

Romans 7:4-5 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The Law of our old husband being dead to us is no longer binding under the Law. The Law of our new husband, (Christ) is binding forever, by the Law of Love. The same applies to a dead husband or wife, in the world and remarrying. Death of a marriage, (divorce) does the same thing, it sets us free from the old husband or wife, who is now dead to the spouse of the divorced. That is why it says don't go back and marry and old spouse unless both are free to do so. Let them be reconciled to each other. In other words if the divorced spouses have been remarried and try to reconcile, it is the same as leaving Christ and going back to our old husband or wife, which is the Law and Satan and death. Even in this as a picture of Israel going back to Egypt. There is still even in this, Grace to bring even old spouses who have been married to another, back into the pureness of Christ Jesus and His life for the old spouses that only He can bring glory into.

This is a cherry bomb, it is getting close to the 4th of July. Becarefull, \\\\\BBOOMBB/////

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/6/19 19:31Profile









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly


Thanks all for your responses, which I've found helpful and provoking.... to further thought and comment.

FOC, your romp through three commentaries was comforting. I think Clarke is the most concise, particularly in bringing immediately to fore, the thought that a law can be brought to an end. This (its abrogation) applies to the Mosaic Law, definitely.


But, Logic, your reference to Matt 5:18, that the law will never pass till all has been fulfilled, got me thinking another question.....

Which law?

This brought me to one answer for sure. We know from the end of Galatians 3 that 'the law' is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ..... and that it is for the 'lawless' - defined in 1 Tim 1:9, 10:

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for lawless and insubordinate, for ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.


Then I got to thinking, maybe part of the whole [b]law of God's love[/b], is, [u]the law of sin and death[/u]. (Rom 8)


KingJimmy, I was hoping you'd explain that to me, especially this:

Quote:
The verb "Ze" (from Zoe) is a Present Active Indicative, 3rd person singular. In Greek, 3rd person singular verbs can apply to "he/she/it," with the gender being determined by context. As it is grammatically speaking, the word even for law (nomos) is a masculine word along with man (antrhopos). The word "he" is not added, for it is included in the fact the verb is 3rd person singular, which by definition must speak of somebody or something.....

The Law is never described as dying. On the contrary, it is describe as being the instrument through which death comes as a judgment upon sin (Romans 7:7-12).

Thanks. I loved all that detail!

There is an interesting marginal note in Tyndale beside Romans 3:19, 20 which says [i]The law justifieth not before God but uttereth sin only[/i]. I love that 'uttereth sin only'! What a great way to express that truth!

Your exposition of the meaning of the passage was helpful, too.


Phillip, I also took the meaning of this section back to chapter 6:4, but just to check, I did a word search on law, and found he first mentions it in chapter two! Then I saw how many other references to the law there are. Surely he is talking about the Mosaic law, when drawing us away from it towards the law of faith (Rom 3)?

It think it is here that your discussion about marriage can make most sense, but, I want to reserve what I would say about that for the other thread...

All those mentions of 'law' reminded me of many years ago in Edinburgh, when I knew a law student who was also a Christian, who said the whole of the first year had been instructed to read the whole of Romans, to see and learn how a legal argument [i][b]should[/b][/i] be conducted!

It's a kind of paradox that one of the longest epistles defending [u][b]liberty[/b] in Chirst[/u], through faith, should be used as a text for students of [i]law[/i] to pick up something of how to present a well-reasoned legal case.

 2006/6/20 6:01
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Christinyou wrote:

Quote:
We are dead to our first husband, which is Satan and him killing us by the Law. Christ is our new husband, and there is no adultry from the first husband.

Satan is not the husband that we are free from the law of in [b]Romans 7:2[/b] [color=990000]For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the [b]law [u]of[/u] her husband[/b].[/color]

The word "of" gives us a clue to who the husband is.

You see, the husband would be sin as we read in [b]Romans 7:25[/b] [color=990000]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself [b]serve[/b] the [b]law [u]of[/u] God[/b]; but with the flesh the [b]law [u]of[/u] sin[/b].[/color]

We sevre God and husbands and as this next verse sais we seved sin.
[b]Romans 6:6-7[/b] [color=990000]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should not [b]be serving sin.[/b]
:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.[/color]

It was the righteous requirements of the law that bound us; [b]Colossians 2:14[/b] [color=990000]The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross.[/color]

The new Husband is God the Son.

Satan has no law, but sin does and God surely does.

We are dead to sin and alive to Christ, not dead to satan.

 2006/6/21 10:47Profile









 Re: Trying to Tread Tenderly


Didn't God [i]need[/i] to give the law only because He wanted to make us understand His heart - how we should treat Him and others?

And the law succeeded in making us aware of the gulf between the performance of our hearts and His.... which He calls [i]sin[/i]?


(NKJV) John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.


Hebrews 2

He Himself likewise shared in the same [flesh and blood], that [u]through [b]death[/b] He might destroy [b]him who had the power of death, that is, the devil[/b], 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage[/u].


Phillip, I see it is possible to make the statement Logic quoted, but, it is not quite biblical language. Although many would admit to having fellowship with sin and death before they were saved, marriage to Satan would be a very extreme and specific circumstance, because of his limitations.

Whereas being made free from sin and death, we [b]are all[/b] made to drink into one Spirit, and seek to become single-eyed and single-hearted towards the Lord Jesus, who is alive forevermore.


1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 2006/6/21 13:58
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

Ephesians 2:1-6 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If we were quickened together with Christ by God, which gives us our new Godly nature, who were we quickened with before we believed? We were quickened with by Adams choice because he believed Satan and we became of our father the devil. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This was our old husband, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" The Spirit of Christ our new husband, and the spirit of Satan our old husband. The old husband took over and we became his bride. He used the Law and in lying, put us in bondage. "Surely you will be just like God." The first law of God, "don't eat of the tree in the middle of the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Nobody likes to think of Satan as their husband but that is exactly what he is to the children of disobedience. He is their prince.

Praise God through Christ Jesus we are divorced from our first husband and married to our new Husband Jesus Christ and we are seated in Heavenly places with Him, we are no longer in law of our first husband. That divorce being the death of our first husband and free to marry Jesus Christ and be his new bride, no longer under the Law of disobedience. We are now alive unto God by His Son that is now our nature, whom we can now be joined together with and seek our new Father in Law, with His Nature and not only by Christ in us but being legally adopted in the the Family of our New Father.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/6/21 14:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

God gave the Law to show us we needed a new heart, His Heart. We that believe now have this new Heart, it is the Heart of Christ birthed in us.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/6/21 16:56Profile





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