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 Re: Getting at the root of the problem


Robert and Ron, you would be very surprised at my reaction to your posts... although I see what you are saying. Please bear with my forthright comment following. You touched a raw nerve which I was not expecting - that you have the luxury of being able to address these issues with your children for all the right and best reasons, and your wives have your support in bringing up your children..... It seemed far from issues about truth, to me. I had a little cry, because I felt angry with indignation, and then I was better - although I hope you do take very seriously the getting to the root of the truth, every time. It is an important aspect of validating your children's existence.

Also, I hope they are not being silenced, so that in the world, they do not feel confident to speak out for truth.


Mike, I am completely non-plussed still, by your quoting this:

'I think it is the Christian stance and the very root of the problem.'

Are you saying that it is a Christian stance to fight for an all-inclusive church, or, is it simply with regard to SI that you want a better spirit of bearing with each other's differences, or, are you saying that we do need to fight for truth, but, as Robert and Ron suggested, do it in a charitable manner?

In the statement 'He simply opposed anti-Arianism.', I see three layers of skepticism from the truth, and I don't see Christianity in any directly, although we are to assume that the anti-Arians were standing for the orthodox faith.

'it [b]is[/b] the Christian stance AND the very root of the problem.'

Is [u]the root of the problem[/u] that Christians have brought their sceptical culture into the church, or into SI, or is it that they can't keep the truth as the focus of our discussions, and bring a high standard of mutual respect to those discussions?

I know you mentioned pride and a host of other things, and maybe I'm missing the point.... Maybe that's all you want to address - what you see as the carnal mind - or sin - but, these are different from playing the ball, not the man.

I'm talking about playing the ball, I think, and see that the way the ball is being played can be defined as 'philosophical scepticim', and that this is a legitimate way to wrangle for truth.

BUT, what this generation may not realise, is that it is supposed to STOP, when the truth has been [u]arrived at[/u].

After it becomes an end in itself, simply to argue (rather than discuss) or to discuss for the sake of prolonging the thread (almost), it no longer justifies itself because the [b]edifying[/b] - spiritually nurturing, component has disappeared. It seems to me this is one of the things you're getting at, but, I would still like you to break down this sentence for my better understanding.

'[i]I think it is the Christian stance and the very root of the problem[/i].'


Thanks.

 2006/6/20 6:48
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Folly ...

Hi Dorcas,

There is something missing there in that description, kind of an incomplete sentance...

'it [b]is[/b] the Christian stance AND the very root of the problem that we are often slow to recognize the Spirit by which we go about things'

And that was the tense of what I was picking up on from the "anti" aspect of Erasmus.

Quote:
Are you saying that it is a Christian stance to fight for an all-inclusive church,



...hmmm, depends ... far too much fodder for misunderstanding there, from the Lords perspective "That they may be one as We .." From ours ... maybe that will get a bit more of a thought down a little ways here. But no, that wasn't the direction I was thinking at all.

Quote:
or, is it simply with regard to SI that you want a better spirit of bearing with each other's differences,


Yes! But even much further and more so than that.

Quote:
or, are you saying that we do need to fight for truth, but, as Robert and Ron suggested, do it in a charitable manner?



Much more concise and if I had my druthers and had just done the simple thing, the one thing ... I would have left off the reply after Robert, he codified it very well as did Ron.

Have been railing somewhat lately about this matter of pride and the Lord is so remarkable in teaching us so many things ... I re-read the follow up later on yesterday and had that sinking feeling again, something missing from all of it, even in attempting to draw it all out and at the time it was written, my I thought, this makes perfect sense! The missing element?

Prayer.

Ah, so slow, to hear. To listen and just obey the one thing the Lord would have us\me to do at any given moment.

It is my lot to pray...

Such high privilege! Nothing to boast of, nothing to make anything of other than it's past a certain conviction ... I know better and when I don't take that specific, set aside time ... Ah, the ruin, the stupidity! :-? Not to be overly smitten by the fact, just a sense of... "[i]Cease striving and know...[/i]"

So what did I find this morning? What was it the Lord wanted?

Nothing.

Just to be quiet. To be still. By and large...
Silent.

And what did I find ...?

A wonderful, peaceful ... rest. A broad smile both in my heart and on my face. Thankfulness and quiet worship and more thankfulness ... It was so tremendous I can hardly express it. It was ... easy. It was ....

Mat 11:28 [i]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.[/i]

It seemed to be a small taste of that half hour of silence in Revelation. The Lord is good.

So to distract back to the topic at hand ... It did come up in the midst of all this, in the other prayers for all of us here ... Had a number of thoughts. One, the silliness of relying on the reserves, so to speak. There may have been something of use in the long rambling after Robert, but just as well some pride while talking about pride, some poor conversation while attempting to draw attention to [i]good conversation[/i]. Had this thought as well...

Seems we can be almost like automobiles, full of gasoline (a disagreement, a contention, an anxiety, a notion, you name it) and one match, something gets under our skin (or into the gas tank) and ... [b]![/b]

And maybe the whole point of this idea attempted here would be to just open a valve and let all the gas out ...

Seems there is still some gas left in this tank.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/6/20 10:13Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Dear saints,

I left the previous 'christian' forum because they seem to love to tear each other down, I now see it as a forum of devilish activities. One could read insanity from many of their 'theological' posts, obsessed with their intense pride and prejudices. All they are ever saying is, " I am right, you are wrong."

Dorcas (Linn?), your posts have edified and taught me quite a bit, I look forward to reading more of them.

I appreciate all you moderators on this forum as I could sense an attitude towards godliness behind your posts. I for one will be asking our LORD to add on to your integrity to uphold this forum in HIS sight to HIS glory in days and years ahead, with much sobriety and faithfulness to the Scriptures. Remembering I Cor 13:9-13 "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part..and the greatest of these is love."

May GOD help each of us in this forum to continue to grow in His grace and His knowledge with much humility and love for one another, in His Spirit and in His Truth!


in Christ,mamaluk :)




 2006/6/21 12:18Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Robert and Ron, you would be very surprised at my reaction to your posts... although I see what you are saying. Please bear with my forthright comment following. You touched a raw nerve which I was not expecting - that you have the luxury of being able to address these issues with your children for all the right and best reasons, and your wives have your support in bringing up your children..... It seemed far from issues about truth, to me. I had a little cry, because I felt angry with indignation, and then I was better - although I hope you do take very seriously the getting to the root of the truth, every time. It is an important aspect of validating your children's existence. Also, I hope they are not being silenced, so that in the world, they do not feel confident to speak out for truth.



Dear Sister, I can only agree with you that I am very surprised by your reaction. I do indeed take very seriously the matter getting to the truth, believe me, I tend to see things in black and white with no shades of gray, but I believe that there must be a foundation of charity, patience, and longsuffering with one another. My purpose in posting was simply to affirm this need for "speaking the truth in love" which is what I thought was a point Mike was driving at.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.(2Ti 2:24-26)

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/6/21 13:26Profile









 Re: Getting at the root of the problem


mamaluk, thank you. I assure you there are many other capable post-ers lurking in the readership of these forums, and, in some old threads you will meet others. There is much to learn here.

 2006/6/21 17:36









 Re: Getting at the root of the problem


Dear Mike,

I know you improved your statement with a qualification, but, it has thrown me, because you used a capital (s) for Spirit, and yet you seem to be saying the spirit we are of, is [i]not[/i] right..... the 'slow to recognise'.

I'm still mystified by the first few words 'it is the Christian stance'.

I can't tell if you mean it should be or it shouldn't be 'the Christian stance'. :-o

Your patience is appreciated.

 2006/6/21 17:41
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Root's

Took a little while to get back to this, have been musing on it still.

[i]He simply [u]opposed anti[/u] ... Arianism.[/i]

Quote:
I am wondering if you think this is, or is not, a valid Christian stance?



Quote:
I can't tell if you mean it should be or it shouldn't be 'the Christian stance'.



At the time I think I took your question in the sense of multiple choice, one among many, "A valid" Christian stance. And my emphasis that it [b][i]Is[/i][/b] the Christian stance with a sense of finality. More than "should be". That stance is from the position of, whose Spirit is indwelling us?

[i]but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

From whence come wars and fightings among you? Come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?[/i]

Zec 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Positionally speaking, what is the heart of the Christian?

The controlling interest? Is it the natural aversion of aggression, leading to reactionary impulses, the [i]first, strike[/i] mentality? I am speaking spiritually and in this realm of brother against brother.

The Lord. Argumentative? Defensive? Compromising? [i]Angry[/i]? In a hostile manner? Better clarify that... The Lords anger and ours far too often are polar opposites. We will find a justification by latching unto the table turning as if it was applicable to all kinds of disagreements and secondary matters.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[b]Therefore, if thou bring thy gift to the altar[/b] ... - The Pharisees were intent only on the external act in worship. They looked not at all to the internal state of the mind. If a man conformed to the external rites of religion, however much envy, and malice, and secret hatred he might have, they thought he was doing well. Our Saviour taught a different doctrine. It was of more consequence to have the heart right than to perform the outward act. If, therefore, says he, a man has gone so far as to bring his gift to the very altar, and should remember that anyone had anything against him, it was his duty there to leave his offering and go and be reconciled. While a difference of this nature existed, his offering could not be acceptable. He was not to wait until the offended brother should come to him; he was to go and seek him out, and be reconciled. So now the worship of God will not be acceptable, however well performed externally, until we are at peace with those that we have injured. “To obey is better than sacrifice,” 1Sa_15:22. He that comes to worship his Maker filled with malice, and hatred, and envy, and at war with his brethren, is a hypocritical worshipper, and must meet with God’s displeasure. God is not deceived, and he will not be mocked.

[b]Thy gift[/b] - Thy sacrifice. What thou art about to devote to God as an offering.

[b]To the altar[/b] - The altar was situated in front of the temple, and was the place on which sacrifices were made. See the notes on plan, Mat_21:12. To bring a gift to the altar was expressive of worshipping God, for this was the way in which he was formerly worshipped.

[b]Thy brother[/b] - Any man, especially any fellow-worshipper. Anyone of the same religious society.

[b]Hath aught[/b] - Is offended, or thinks he has been injured by you in any manner.

[b]First be reconciled[/b] - This means to settle the difficulty; to make proper acknowledgment or satisfaction for the injury. If you have wronged him, make restitution. If you owe him a debt which ought to be paid, pay it. If you have injured his character, confess it and seek pardon. If he is under an erroneous impression, if your conduct has been such as to lead him to suspect that you have injured him, make an explanation. Do all in your power; and all you ought to do, to have the matter settled. From this we learn:

1. That, in order to worship God acceptably, we must do justice to our fellow-men.

2. Our worship will not be acceptable unless we do all we can to live peaceably with others.

3. It is our duty to seek reconciliation with others when we have injured them.

4. This should be done before we attempt to worship God.

5. This is often the reason why God does not accept our offerings, and we go empty away from our devotions. We do not do what we ought to others; we cherish improper feelings or refuse to make proper acknowledgments, and God will not accept such attempts to worship him.

Albert Barnes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
know you improved your statement with a qualification, but, it has thrown me, because you used a capital (s) for Spirit, and yet you seem to be saying the spirit we are of, is not right..... the 'slow to recognize'.



2Co 13:5 [i]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?[/i]

It may be an interesting slip there ... And the way you put it makes one have to really stop and think about it. Which re-doubles the whole point.

If we were to measure everything back to this centrality, this [i][u]fact[/u][/i], this incredibly powerful, unimaginable reality ... To ponder long on this;

that [b]Jesus Christ is in you[/b]

Not what He has done, Has said, Has taught ([i]by themselves[/i]), we have churches filled and even the morally 'good' people of the world filled with and adhering to principles, aping conduct. "What Would Jesus Do"? As if He was only a mere consultant, a teacher of wisdom, someone to appeal, to [i]act[/i]like. I know a great deal of this is preaching to the choir as we have been over it a million times ... and yet how stinging if we were to pause and reflect on many an issue that becomes hostile, that [i]starts[/i] from the wrong [i]center[/i]...

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11166&post_id=86955&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#86955]Behold, I stand at the door, and knock[/url]

Thought that deserved it's own place there. But if Christ be [i]in[/i] us, is not His very character as well? All the former mentions of the things He said and did and so forth, are they not present [i]now[/i]? Do we not recognize that we are much more than 'representative' of Him, that the One and same Spirit, The Holy Spirit who ...

[i]But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, [u]he shall testify of me[/u]: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.[/i]Joh 15:26,27

And again because ...

[i]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be [b][u]in[/u][/b] you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you[/i]. Joh 14:16-18

I am practically beside myself in just drawing attention back to this profundity of expression, this unimaginable ... undeserved? Oh how well we know this aspect, correction, or do we? Our actions often betray us...

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

And every knee shall and every tongue will, does our heart not do so [i][u]now[/u][/i], are we not humbled [i]presently[/i]?

This past week has been a wonder. A time of beautiful, sweet simplicity of prayer, largely silent, [i]be still and know...[/i], peaceful, resting and waiting on the Lord, His slight manifest Presence as I am want to describe it, nearer. The quiet underlying groanings of the spirit, the ease of mingled prayers and intercession. Wonderful. Incredible.

But one must always arise from the prayer closet and go forth out into the world which is so adjusted as to make everything ridiculously difficult having displaced God Himself, with the human self, deceived to the absurd point of thinking we\they\us are running everything ...

It did carry over as I went about my work, underneath everything even in the silly pace and overwhelming amount of [i]load[/i]. And just as it always seems, the Lord will put the closet learning and experience to the test. I tend to put it in this peculiar mind of mine as "Being kicked off the mountain". And it came. A test of resolve, not by will power but by submission.

I was getting what I perceived to be unduly hammered by my boss, all kinds of emotions began stirring up, defenses and resentments, was beginning to get quite ticked off inwardly and as the usual want is, that place of expression, that 'complaint', to want to vent it to a coworker who just happened to be present while it had taken place. As I walked away from it afterward, stewing over it, justifying myself in my thoughts ... A voice; "Humble yourself". Oh without a doubt, not my voice. Not then, not some former learned principle, "I ought to, I should". It was distinct and I knew Whose voice was speaking. I smiled and recognized all the previous days productivity if I may of the prayer closet and inwardly acknowledged, "Yes, of course ..." "Thank you Lord". Did everything suddenly turn back to peace and tranquility? Not exactly, but all the steam was let out, all the flammable gas drained away and as the day progressed, the little arguments that kept attempting to raise themselves back up again were met time and again with "Humble yourself" and His peace overwhelmed and overshadowed.

The greater aspect of all this is that the Lord maintains His glory and how often is it by the smallest of matters, seemingly, in the realm of things we [i]don't do[/i] that give witness to Him rather than [i]doing[/i] and defending, fighting and waring, biting and devouring, [i]arguing[/i] over doctrines rather than [i]reasoning[/i] with each other ... Always forgetting the Lord Himself while being busy about His business as we are want to think it and rarely stopping to ask the Lord, who is [u]in[/u] us,... His opinion, on our opinion, of our interpretation of His opinion...

That we might just humble ourselves ... first.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/6/24 12:34Profile





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