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Well said Grafted branch! :-D

 2006/7/31 19:29

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

By Albert Barns, notes on the Bible, form Sword Searcher Bible Software:

1Co 5:5
Verse 5. To deliver. This is the sentence which is to be executed. You are to deliver him to Satan, etc.
Unto Satan. Beza, and the Latin Fathers, suppose that this is only an expression of excommunication. They say, that in the Scriptures there are but two kingdoms recognised--the kingdom of God, or the church, and the kingdom of the world, which is regarded as under the control of Satan; and that to exclude a man from one, is to subject him to the dominion of the other. There is some foundation for this opinion; and there can be no doubt that excommunication is here intended; and that, by excommunication, the offender was in some sense placed under the control of Satan. It is further evident, that it is here supposed that by being thus placed under him the offender would be subject to corporal inflictions by the agency of Satan, which are here called the "destruction of the flesh." Satan is elsewhere referred to as the author of bodily diseases. Thus in the case of Job, Job 2:7. A similar instance is mentioned in 1Ti 1:20, where Paul says he had delivered Hymeneus and Alexander "to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." It may be observed here, that though this was to be done by the concurrence of the church, as having a right to administer discipline, yet it was directed by apostolic authority; and there is no evidence that this was the usual form of excommunication, nor ought it now to be used. There was evidently miraculous power evinced in this case, and that power has long since ceased in the church.

For the destruction of the flesh. We may observe here,

(1.) that this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2Co 2:7.

(2.) It was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life---often called in the Scriptures one of the sins or works of the flesh, Ga 5:19 and the design was, that the punishment should follow in the line of the offence, or be a just retribution, as punishment often does. Many have supposed that, by the "destruction of the flesh," Paul meant only the destruction of his fleshly appetites or carnal affections; and that he supposed that this would be effected by the act of excommunication. But it is very evident from the Scriptures that the apostles were imbued with the power of inflicting diseases or bodily calamities for crimes. See Ac 13:11; 1Co 11:30. What this bodily malady was, we have no means of knowing. It is evident that it was not of very long duration, since when the apostle exhorts them 2Co 2:7 again to receive him, there is no mention made of his suffering then under it. This was an extraordinary and miraculous power. It was designed for the government of the church in its infancy, when everything was fitted to show the direct agency of God; and it ceased, doubtless, with the apostles. The church now has no such power. It cannot now work miracles; and all its discipline now is to be moral discipline, designed not to inflict bodily pain and penalties, but to work a moral reformation in the offender.

That the spirit may be saved. That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue. This expresses the true design of the discipline of the church; and it ought never to be inflicted but with a direct intention to benefit the offender, and to save the soul. Even when he is cut off and disowned, the design should not be vengeance, or punishment merely, but it should be to recover him and save him from ruin.

In the day of the Lord Jesus. The day of judgment, when the Lord Jesus shall come, and shall collect his people to himself.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/8/2 3:43Profile

Joined: 2006/1/13
Posts: 119


1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Listed above are 3 passages which all speak of blasphemy. My question would in regards to (1Tim 1:20) be can one who is born of the Spirit blaspheme God and still be in a right standing with God?

Ciao. God bless ya all!

 2006/8/2 5:00Profile

Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


As for Alexander, wasn't he the silversmith who made idols for a living, and who wanted to hinder Paul's work? I'm not so sure if he were one in/of the Holy Spirit.

For a true believer, according to Galatians 5:17
"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would", a true Christian can blaspheme and sin against God but remains positionally a child of God, but as to be in a "right standing" with God ,I doubted, I'd think that he needs to confess and repent from such blasphemy.

mamaluk :)

 2006/8/2 11:54Profile

Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


Listed above are 3 passages which all speak of blasphemy. My question would in regards to (1Tim 1:20) be can one who is born of the Spirit blaspheme God and still be in a right standing with God?

Any Christian is capable of commiting any sin. Having the Life of God in your spirit does not clense the flesh, nor remove the sinful nature from it.

Rather in Christ it's power is broken and we are no longer slaves to sin. Yet if we neglect our daily fellowship with Christ, neglect contacting Him, and enjoying Him as our daily portion, the flesh will assert itself and we will not express Christ but rather our fallen natural life whether it be natural goodness or sinfulness.

Our sins do not effect our standing with God. If we are in Christ we are redeemed, justified and Christ has become our rightousness. But our fellowship with God is affected by our failure to live by Him, to exercise our spirit and to walk by the Spirit.

The Christian is a new creature, his spirit has been regenerated and the Spirit of God dwells in him. He cannot sin without compunction nor continue and remain at peace inwardly. God does not save and regenerate and leave the new born soul to himnself. Rather He works within him and has predestinated him to become conformed to the Image of His Son (Romans 8:29). It is God who has redeemed him and God who will finally conform him (those whome He justified, these he also glorified). If we cooperate this will be sooner. If not, later. But in the end God will have His mature, sons and Christ will have His perfected Bride.

Paul's word concering those whom,"he has delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme" just like the man "who had his father's wife," are brought into God's dicipline. Not God's eternal wrath. There is a difference. They are taught. They are diciplined. But they are not perishing.

Compare with the Lord's word to Peter, "Satan has desired you that he might sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail". Peter denied the Lord with swearing and blasphemies. But did he perish? No.

Some believers to be sure, who do not take the cross, do not deny the soul life today, will lose the enjoyment of the Kingdom in the comming age. If they save their soul life today, they will lose it in the comming age. Some will not be reigning with Christ. Some will suffer dicipline and "many stripes. There will be weeping and knashing of teeth.

But this does not mean perishing in the lake of fire.

As the Lord said regarding those who have lost their saltiness, They are fit neither for the land (the church as God's farm issueing in the Kingdom) nor for the mannuar pile (the lake of fire) but are cast out. Cast out of what? Cast out of the Kingdom in the commng age. They will not gain the reward of those who "suffer with Him that they also might be glorified with Him".

They are neither fit for the Kingdom nor for Hell. They are salt. But they have diluted their saltiness by loving the world like Lot's wife. They have escaped the condemnation of Sodom, but have not gone to the place of safety with Lot. Rather they have become a pillar of tastless salt to be thrown out of the Kingdom. They will be saved yet so as through fire.

And they will be diciplined and perfected and matured in that age when the Lord will give to each according to what he has done. And in the Eternal Age in the New Earth under the New Heavens, they will have been diciplined, perfected and matured. They will be part of the New Jerusalem, the Wife of the Lamb, the dwellng place of God, the tabernacle of God, the City of God and the expression of God for all eternity.

For the believer hell is not an issue: "they shall never perish and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand". "We have not recieved a spirit of bondage to fear again, but we have recieved the Spirit of sonship, in which we cry "abba Father". The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. And if children, heirs also, heirs of God...". "That whosoever believes into Him might not perish but have eternal Life". "God has given us eternal Life, this life is in His Son. He who has the Son, has the Life".

But for the Christian there remains great matters at stake. There is a race to run and a prize to be gained or lost. Not everyone who competes wins the prize. There is the prize Paul aspired to. Was he saved? Yes, but he ran for the prize. Was he running for "heaven" to escape "hell"? No. Not at all.

There is being "joint heirs with Christ (in the kingdom) if so be that we suffer with Him that we also might rein with Him". Reign over what or whom and when? In the Kingdom. There is the Judgement seat of Christ. There is reward and dicipline. There are crowns to gain for those 'who love His appearing". There are many issues at stake which depend on our faithfulness, our paying the price daily to gain the exta oil in our vessels. There is reward for faithfulness to our commission. There is dicipline for those who mistreat and do not forgive their fellow slaves ("truly I say to you, they shall not come out of there till they have paid the last farthing"). There is much at stake.

"Those who practice such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God".

"That his spirit might be saved in that day".


 2006/8/2 13:17Profile

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