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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
No it is not scriptural and there are no scriptural examples.



I believe there is basis in some aspect in Revelation 12:11, "For the Accuser of our brothers is cast down .. and they overcame Him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and because they loved not their soul life even unto death."

That is, the Blood speaks to the accuser. He accuses, we testify to the Blood, The Spirit witnesses to the Blood, and the accuser is silenced.

Many can testify to this experience. It is not magical any more than calling on the Lord or any form of prayer or exercise of the spirit in quoting a verse or psalm or hymn, etc.

It is no more magical than the Lord saying, "It is written... begone Satan.."

Surely in some pentecostal circles this has been turned into a magical cure all and elixer and as most things are in those circles, taken to wild extreams akin to making the sign of the cross to ward off vampires, but its misuse should not remove it from our arsonal of weapons of warfare as part of the sword of the Spirit.

"The Spirit answers to the Blood and tells me I am born of God"

How many spiritual facts and realites are for us to avail ourseves of and experience not by asking, but by declaring the Divine facts and by speaking the truth. This is not magic, this is just testifying to the reality and relying on the Spirit to make it real in our experience as we go in faith.

For instance when we are aunder a sense of condemnation we can quote, "there is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." As we do so, we are strengthend in our spirit.

It is more effective generally than throwing our ink bottle at the devil as Luther is known to have done.

Graftedbranch

 2006/6/16 16:38Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I don't believe this. He did not bleed to death. The thieves did not bleed to death.



Amen Dorcas.

The blood did not flow out till they pierced His side after His death. Then flowed blood and water. He did bleed, of course, thorns in the brow, nails in the hands. lashes on the back. Of course He bled. But He layed down His own Life of His own accord and said, "Father, Into thy hands I commend My spirit".

Graftedbranch

 2006/6/16 16:49Profile









 Re: By His Stripes we are healed!

Stever posts again on this issue:

When I pray for a sick person, after I have anointed them with oil and lay hands on them---many times I pray the promises in God's Word.


During my prayer, I will mention the promise--"John, as it says in God's Word, by his stripes we are healed, tonight we claim this promise found in God's Word for you. By Jesus's stripes you, John, are healed, from the top of your head to the tips of your toes, you are fully healed and restored. We thank you Father for your healing of John tonight, in advance, and we bless you for it, and praise your Holy Name.

Thank you Lord, in Jesus Name, the Name above all names, Amen".

1 Peter 2:24
" 24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

God bless,

Stever :-D

P.S. There is no "magic" or any other kind of thing like that involved with this type of prayer. As Spirit filled, born again believers, we have access to the throne room of heaven, and the Holy Spirit is the one that empowers us to pray with boldness for the sick and dying. We have also been empowered with the power of attorney to use the Name, the Name above all names to use when we pray, the Name of Jesus Christ.

Our belief is in His (God's) power to do anything. It has nothing to do with our own puny faith. If we include God's promises, from His Word, it sometimes provides understanding to the one we are praying for with the smallest amount of faith (that of a mustard seed) of the power that God really has, the God that we are talking to and praying to that keeps all of our prayers in heaven, in golden vials, forever!

Rev 5:8
" 8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

 2006/6/17 4:33









 Re: Pleading the Blood?

Stever responds:

Various verses that testify to the power of the blood. In the Old Testament it offered a protection, a covering for sin. The entire time, over 1,500 years all of these sacrifices of animals was only a picture of the one time sacrifice of God Himself, on the Cross, for our sins.

Exodus 12:17
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Exodus 12:13

11. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 17:11
12. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


New Testament references to the power of Christ’s blood in the life of the believer:


1 John 6:7

7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Hebrews 9:6-14

6. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 13:20
20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Hebrews 13:20 (Amplified Bible)
20. Now may the God of peace [who is the author and giver of peace], who brought again from among the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood [that sealed, ratified] the everlasting agreement (covenant, testament). [Isaiah 55:3; 63:11; Ezekiel 37:26; Zech 9:11].


God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/17 14:30
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Stever

Quote:
During my prayer, I will mention the promise--"John, as it says in God's Word, by his stripes we are healed, tonight we claim this promise found in God's Word for you. By Jesus's stripes you, John, are healed, from the top of your head to the tips of your toes, you are fully healed and restored. We thank you Father for your healing of John tonight, in advance, and we bless you for it, and praise your Holy Name.



the reference you used here for the healing of our bodies by His stripes is out of context. in isaiah 53 the word says Christ was wounded for our iniquities and sins, so His blood atoned for that and we're healed in spirit. the matter of being healed in body is contingent on faith and obedience to God's instruction in response to a petition for such. Christ was healing people left and right before He was crucified because He obeyed the Father thereby glorifying Him and also the ones who were healed believed in that power in some measure or enough to be healed.

another thing i'm led to speak about is what is the spirit in which we go out and do these things? it seems to me that those who received healing got it instantaneously. i wonder if sometimes such prayer for healing are not answered immediately because even while the idea is noble, the intent is not to glorify God, but to make someone feel better, a God-centred vs a man-centred (humanistic) approach? When Christ healed, it was for the Father's glory, when we go out and seek to do the same, are we doing this in the same Spirit Christ did? or are we doing it for acclaim or for the humanistic aspect for neither one will cut it. let us let God show us the spirit in which we so move lest we become deceived and move in any other spirit other than one of glorifying the Father.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/18 13:08Profile









 Re: Pleading the blood?

Quote:
i wonder if sometimes such prayer for healing are not answered immediately because even while the idea is noble, the intent is not to glorify God,

Jesus had compassion on the people He healed. He simply wanted them to be well again. Of course, this brings glory to the Father, but, I don't think anyone goes so far as to pray for healing [i]not[/i] for the glory of God.

Am I naive? Does God heal under these circumstances? My faith doesn't stretch to praying for healing on the off-chance God will hear me. I know Him. I don't want to offer to pray unless I sense the Holy Spirit's prompting, also bringing the necessary faith for that circumstance.

Quote:
the matter of being healed in body is contingent on faith and obedience to God's instruction in response to a petition for such.

Surely the instruction comes first, then we pray, then the person experiences the healing. Or, by 'petition for such' do you mean you ask for instruction before you are willing to pray? (Which is the same as I am saying?)

In general, I don't think of healing as dependent on anything except the faith of the Son of God, Whose Word is Life; Who is Life.

 2006/6/18 13:59
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

hey sis Dorcas

Quote:
Jesus had compassion on the people He healed. He simply wanted them to be well again. Of course, this brings glory to the Father, but, I don't think anyone goes so far as to pray for healing not for the glory of God.



yes Christ had compassion for the people yet in spite of this He sought to do only the Father's will, or better yet His compassion was not preeminent to the will of the Father but was channeled in such a way that God the Father was glorified. i agree in that you're not likely to find anyone who prays for healing not for the glory of God as you said but while this may not be prayed out loud or even in one's heart,but the spirit in which one seeks such may confirm this. one may not say this but in so doing the individual is moving in a spirit which is not seeking God's glory, knowingly or not.

Quote:
Am I naive? Does God heal under these circumstances? My faith doesn't stretch to praying for healing on the off-chance God will hear me. I know Him. I don't want to offer to pray unless I sense the Holy Spirit's prompting, also bringing the necessary faith for that circumstance.



i think not and you bring about a good point in that we must listen for the prompting of the Holy Spirit to pray for such things. some would argue that common sense should say we should simply pray anyway but we must remember that everyone in the world has common sense in some measure but we are a different breed who should conduct ourselves differently because we are driven by something more than common sense, Holy Spirit. if we are prompted by Him to so pray, we can be sure it is coming from heaven and the Lord will supply whatever is needed to see the work through be it faith, power or otherwise.

Quote:
Surely the instruction comes first, then we pray, then the person experiences the healing. Or, by 'petition for such' do you mean you ask for instruction before you are willing to pray? (Which is the same as I am saying?)



indeed the instruction must come (should have swicthed the order or qualified that statement) whether it be to make the petition repeatedly or the instruction to go to he person and pray with them or declare the healing in Christ's name.

Quote:
In general, I don't think of healing as dependent on anything except the faith of the Son of God, Whose Word is Life; Who is Life.



well i'm reminded of the time in Nazareth wherein Christ could do no miracle because the people there had no faith. or do we consider healing and miracles separate things? :-? either way, if even He being of perfect faith couldn't do anything there, that speaks to the working of miracles also being dependant in some measure on our own faith. yet at the same time Christ's own faith is required. or maybe you mean we ought to have Christ's Faith rather than a faith from ourselves?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/18 14:25Profile









 Re: By His stripes we are healed!

Stever responds to Ironman:

If I am praying “improperly” by claiming the promise that all sickness is/was healed by the stripes of Jesus Christ, then the following sicknesses, that were healed by prayer, given by my wife and myself to the Lord, tell an entirely different story:


1.Necrotizing Pancreatitis in a 60 year friend that I went to College with many years ago. The "healing" that has his doctors shaking their heads to this day, 4 years later.
2.Terminal brain cancer of a 6 year old boy
3.Healing of a knee with excruiating pain that had taken place over a 2 year period---that was scheduled for a 2nd surgery 3 days later (the surgry never had to take place). It was healed the very next day.

There are many other healings, all performed by Christ through the power of prayer, by: 1) the anointing of oil, 2) laying on of hands, 3) and claiming the promise found in 1 Peter 2:24 in specific intercessory prayer for each person that states by his stripes we are healed!

“24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

Also, in Isaiah 55:5 “ But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”


There is a lot of misunderstanding in the body of Christ in regards to Christ’s work on the cross, and in His death and resurrection from the dead. Hopefully, the following will shed light on this issue for all those who are interested. The power of the blood is awesome, and removes the blot of sin, as well as cures the sickness from the lives of believers in Jesus Christ:


“BY HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED”

BRUCE R. REICHENBACH*



I. SICKNESS AND SIN IN SCRIPTURE
Old Testament thought frequently links sickness, suering and sin. Humans freely sin, and sin leads to punishment, which culminates appropriately in suffering. In the Genesis story of the fall the writer traces both the excruciating pain of childbearing and the man’s painful toil in tilling the soil for a living to human disobedience of God’s command regarding the central tree of the Garden (Gen 3:16–19). God punishes Miriam with leprosy when she complains about Moses’ recent marriage and his failure to share power (Num12:1–16), while those who gave a false report about Canaan die from a plague (14:33–38). Elisha’s servant Gehazi greedily pursues Naaman’s of payment for services rendered and is punished with leprosy (2 Kgs 5:20–27). Elijah instructs Jehoram that because of his idolatry and murder of his brothers he will suer a “lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out” (2 Chr 21:12–16).

The Levitical instructions regarding the oering for atonement provide hints of the broad extent to which ancient Israel viewed the connection between illness and sin. Not only did serious sins and unintentional sins demand atonement; it also was required for certain illnesses that made a person unclean—such as infectious skin diseases or unusual bodily discharges, as when a woman’s menstrual period lasted longer than normal but that were not considered results of sin. After certifcation as clean, the healed were to request the priest to make a sin offering on their behalf.

This perceived connection of sickness and sin continues into the New Testament. Jesus tells the leper whom he heals to offer the atonement offering (Matt 8:4), and he commands the healed paralytic, who likewise went to the temple to offer the atonement offering, to “stop sinning or something worse may happen to you” (John 5:11). James, who holds that since some sickness results from sin, prayers of confession possess a concomitant healing power (Jas 5:13–16), makes the clearest connection.

At the same time it is unlikely that ancient Israel believed that every instance of pain, suffering, or dysfunction resulted from sin. Strong voices in both Testaments deny the universal linkage of suffering and sin. The book of Job stands as a monument to an opposing view. Though Job cannot understand the reason for his physical ills and suffering, he repeatedly resists his visitors’ contention that his suering results from his sin. He protests his innocence and calls on God as his witness. Jesus too denies the universal connection of serious sickness and sin. In their encounter with the blind beggar (John 9) Jesus’ disciples query whether it was this man’s sin or that of his parents that caused his blindness. Jesus rejects both options in favor of another reason. Even James, in his epistle, appears to reject a universal connection when he introduces the hypothetical “If he has sinned.”

The Levitical laws for atonement did not require a sin offering for every illness, boil or swelling but only for illnesses that were prolonged (and hence possibly contagious) or when a person abnormally emitted fluids like blood that could spread contagion. One might conjecture that atonement applied to those diseases that were viewed as threats to the general health and welfare of the community.

Given this, it is probably safe to say that in general the ancient Hebrews believed that serious illness was more than a physical phenomenon. It had moral and spiritual dimensions that made it appropriate to beseech the Almighty for deliverance (Ps 91:1–10).

Since a function of God was to heal the sick (Exod 15:26) the role of healer, found in surrounding cultures, did not form a significant part of OT Hebrew culture (though this apparently changes in the Greek period). Priests provided diagnostics and administered purication laws and rituals but were not considered healers. Sin not only leads to illness but also can result in death. David’s adultery with Bathsheba led to the illness and death of the child born from their union (2 Sam 12:15–18). In the NT Paul traces the entry of death into the world through the sin of the first human (Rom 5:12–17). The wages of sin are death, Paul claims (6:23). The linkage between sin, sickness, suering and death forms a background motif for Isaiah in the Servant song of chaps. 52–53. For him there is no difficulty in moving between the two in prophetic poetic parallelism.

II. SICKNESS, SUFFERING AND SIN IN THE AGE OF MEDICINE

The modern age greatly resists this linkage. Medical practitioners generally are not trained in the spiritual arts of healing. They rely on the physiological staples of drug therapy and surgery. Media accounts of horror stories where reliance on faith healing, though based on sincere religious conviction, leads to disastrous consequences bolster the correctness of this approach.

Yet the recent emphasis on holistic health therapy seeks to restore some measure of balance between the spiritual and physical dimensions of healing. It recognizes that many factors, including those beyond what can be treated with drugs or surgery, aect a person’s health. Healing, in part, comes from within oneself rather than without. One’s emotional state, family and social relations, and personal outlook on life can significantly influence one’s health. The role of placebos here is informative. One study suggests that “in general, a placebo is between 30% and 60% as effective as the active medication with which it is compared, regardless of the power of the medication.”

Whether or not this figure is wholly accurate it indicates that the psychological plays an important if not often a crucial role in the origin and treatment of illness. Similar things confirming the links between the psychological and the physiological can be suggested for certain dispositional traits. For example, anxiety or worry produces diverse physiological symptoms from rashes and hives to asthmatic attacks. Persons with type-A personality characteristics, who are aggressive and competitive, have higher productions of adrenaline and cortisone, which can lead to arteriosclerosis. Similarly it would seem that states of character—virtues or the lack thereof—might likewise be linked with emotional and physical health. Treating humans merely physiologically is inadequate, and treating human illness merely psychologically or spiritually is irresponsible. As with our argument in the previous section, the truth lies in the middle. Possessing both spiritual and physical dimensions, human illness must be addressed using appropriate measures from both directions.

The linkage, then, between sin and sickness should not be easily dismissed. While it would be perverse to assess the moral character of individuals based on their suerings, it would be naïve to think that sin never brings painful consequences for the perpetrator or that immorality in a person’s act or character might not underlie illness. Treatment of such an illness might begin by addressing the spiritual dimension of the ill.

HEALING IN THE Old TESTAMENT
We have seen that ancient Hebraic thought sees serious human sickness and suffering, even death itself, connected with sin. We might say that the human predicament includes both sin and suffering. What we seek is a cure for both the symptom (illness) and its cause (sin).

The Levitical sacrificial system did not provide healing for persons afflicted with infectious diseases (Leviticus 13). When diseased, persons were brought to the priest for examination. After sequential periods of isolation, if upon further inspection the ill continued to show signs of an infectious disease they were removed outside the camp until they were healed. If eventually the diseased thought healing had occurred, the priest was summoned to so certify. The priest when he visited the ill did not bring healing but only a certification that healing had occurred. If the diseased were healed they were then invited back into the camp, whereupon the priest atoned on their behalf by presenting the sin and the guilt offerings. The atonement provided forgiveness for the sin that occasioned the disease, thus allowing the person again to participate in communal life and its relationship with God. But though sacrifice atoned for the sin on behalf of the person now certified as healed, that sacrifice did not cure the ailment. The sacrificial system left the human predicament of sickness and death untouched. Humans need healing, which can extend beyond physical and mental symptoms, for as we have seen, serious sickness can have deeper roots. For healing to occur it often must assume a deeper, spiritual dimension. Though the word “atonement” is not mentioned in Isaiah 53, the concept underlies the passage. The Servant comes to address the human predicament in a way not before fully envisioned.

Since the Servant appears not to come from the Levitical tree, his mission extends far beyond mere certification of cleanness. The Servant takes on the role of healer or physician in its radical and culturally relevant dimensions. The writer of Isaiah 53 describes humans as a˙icted with infirmities and pains. On one interpretation of the historical context of the passage the sufferers are the Israelites captive in Babylon. As unclean sinners they have been driven from the camp (Jerusalem) because of their sickness. Since they cannot cure themselves they need a deliverer, the Servant, who removes their illnesses to end their exile and restore them to their home, community and temple (the dwelling of Yahweh).

In a more particularized and less politicized sense, individual humans are sinners. The Servant is not like the priests, who merely certify uncleanness and cleanness. He actually bears the sins of those who have sinned, are afflicted, and cannot find a cure. The Servant in this atonement role assumes the infirmities and sins and thereby elects a cure for the human predicament through his own suffering and death. He is a “man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering,” stricken, smitten and afflicted, pierced and crushed, wounded and finally killed. Atonement comes through another’s suffering and death.

The drama portrays more than a temporary reprieve. The self-sacrifice has finality. It is curative and finally restorative. In a way that the priests and their sacrifices could not accomplish, the Servant heals through his suffering, death and intercession. He is the Great Physician.

Indeed, Matthew quotes this passage in this very light. He understands Jesus’ healing of the sick who come to him in droves as fulfilling the Servant passage (Matt 8:16–17).

Jesus comes as the promised healer of his people, one who can heal by forgiving sins (9:1–8). To the paralytic lowered through the roof Jesus says, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” When questioned whether what he said was appropriate, Jesus notes: “Which is easier: to say ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?” Then to show he had the power to forgive sins he commanded the paralytic to get up and go home. For Matthew, Jesus carries out the dual healing ministry prophesied by Isaiah.
xxxxxxxxxx

Hope this makes it clear for all of those that made it this far.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/18 16:52
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: OOOOOHHHHHHHH!!!!

bro Stever
i get it now, the work of Christ on the cross cleanses us from sin and gives us access to the healing power of God once we're baptized into Him?i'm assuming this is the context in which you said the prayers.

praise God for Him glorifying Himself through you in those miraculous healings!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/18 17:27Profile









 Re: Pleading the blood?

Quote:
well i'm reminded of the time in Nazareth wherein Christ could do no miracle because the people there had no faith. or do we consider healing and miracles separate things? either way, if even He being of perfect faith couldn't do anything there, that speaks to the working of miracles also being dependant in some measure on our own faith. yet at the same time Christ's own faith is required. or maybe you mean we ought to have Christ's Faith rather than a faith from ourselves?

Ironman,

Thanks for these challenging questions. I have never thought about the lack of faith which prevented Jesus from doing healings and miracles, because there those who present themselves for prayer for healing are demonstrating a measure of faith and openness to receive, simply by coming forward. But, it is a valid point, that Jesus Himself would not [u]force[/u] healing and miracles upon an unwilling population. We should take this to heart in our own ministries.

I've not given deep thought to the difference between a healing and a miracle, but I know some people believe healing is a speeding up of a natural process, whereas a miracle requires something new to be created to complete the transformation. I'm not sure it makes much difference if the prayer of faith is being offered in the right attitude towards God. It is HE who does whatever is needed. Our faith in His faith brings me (us) to the point of asking Him.

Recently, I've seen that it is His life which heals. He was raised from the dead by His Father. Before He died though, He said 'I am the Resurrection and the Life'. Yet, being dead, He could not raise Himself. That took faith that His Father would do it.

Probably, I should not say much more until I've thought some more. I know one thing, that the blood is for our cleansing. The life in the blood that He shed, was the life which was sacrificed for the remission of our sins.

Inasmuch as Christ had not died before He was able to give power to the disciples to heal and cast out demons, I feel there is something else at work through the Spirit, when we pray for healing. Yes, there may be a need for the confession of sin at the same time, but, I see the two as distinct, even though there may be a cause and effect sometimes.

I don't believe there is scriptural support for a mention of the blood when we pray for healing, although it is because of the blood that we can receive the Holy Spirit and be in a position to pray for healing.

The Lord showed me once, in a life-changing encounter, that He [u]is[/u] COMPASSION and it is this compassion that heals. Compassion seems to be a function of His love operating through us. But, Love is not Compassion only.... it is much more. Nevertheless, His compassion was what moved Him to heal when He was on earth. We need His compassion to move us, perhaps, before we can begin to feel the overwhelming desire He has for each person to be whole, and to minister this wholeness in His Name.

I do believe in calling on the Name of Jesus for everything I feel led to trust is in His will. But, as I said in an earlier post, that's more because I believe it is part of the language understood by principalities and powers, not because I think it is 'magic' in its application.

I use it because I believe myself to be 'in Jesus'. (Acts 19) I believe God answers those He recognises in His Son. This is [i]my[/i] faith.



 2006/6/19 10:53





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