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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The ministry of music (or not)

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NONE4ME
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 20
Chicago, IL

 Re:

You know, I should have known the lines would have to be drawn some where. Thanks for the reminder about the persecution and when I read that it brought me to a place of worship and humility, and reverence that my God has counted me worthy of this; to stand and be a witness in this time and in this season. The guys in Acts were not living for themselves and that was very notable to all.
I am honored to have been bestowed upon me such "rich" ministry today.
and concerning Keith Daniels, I heard one (the video) and I must say, his stand for righteousness, and eschewing (I think i spelled that right) his intolerance for evil is what stood out to me, and his zeal for the holiness of God. It is a "mantle" to carry, but for the cross.
This has been really the theme of this whole ordeal and from there I take me position. If it is to speak, or if it is for me to die some more, or take a stand that will leave me unpopular, then maybe wanted that sacrifice from me too.
My comfort, maybe that too, but all "that I may know Him, and the power of the ressurection, and the fellowship of the suffering being made conformable to His death... and be found ...in Him, not having my own righteousness.
I receive all the comments, and welcome more, will tell you the outcome. God bless.


_________________
Percell Kizer, Jr.

 2006/6/13 17:58Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

None4me,

I agree with the idea that you should wait for the Lord you show you your specific course of action.

However, I can relate to the grievous confusion that trying to "worship" in this environment can create. There is so much Sunday morning strife over technical issues like stage volume, faulty pre-amps, dead 9-volt batteries, monitor complaints, blah blah. Worship team prayer is reduced to a frazzled pre-show huddle, "Lord please help us stay focused on you in spite of all the chaos and technical problems we've invited into your sanctuary." All of this vanity is sold to the musicians under euphemistic catch phrases like "Excellence for Christ" or "why should the world have more quality?" After playing the set, the musicians all file out through the side stage door confessing to one another their sins of wrong chords and missed cues. Usually, every talented singer is called "anointed" and every loud song is called "powerful" by the guy stepping up to the podium to give the morning announcements. During the sermon the 'engineer' behind the soundboard is busy leafing through the latest issue of "Sound and Stage" magazine, dreaming of that next piece of fabulous gear. After the service someone drops a complaint card saying that the music just wasn't as "prophetic" as Morningstar's worship CD's...

Just another weekend rockin' the suburbs in America, where faith is the latest style of things hoped for...not the substance.

Yeah, I feel your grieved heart on this situation brother.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/6/13 22:09Profile
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

it would be great if the worship team could sing off to the side instead having a main stage, like a concert. i think this would help people take the focus off the worship team and truly give glory to God and not man. i believe this also would help the worship team not to get prideful and desire fame, to be seen, and applause from men. i know it would be hard for my flesh to handle if i was in a worship band playing in front of people and seeing hands raise up towards me. i would want to sing to the side or in back in fear i may take His glory for myself. you would definetly have to be in Him because the flesh loves attention and fame.

didn't the levites do it that way in the temple? i could be wrong, but i thought i read somewhere that they sang off to the side.

none4me, i truly understand the grievance. i have wept many times in the church i use to go too. one of the reasons why i wept much was because it was very obviouse that the worship team there wanted God's glory for themselves. i've had many sleepless nights because of this grievance. God used me to speak to the worship team about their falsehood, but they just did not listen. i was hated by many of the artists in my church. this church was all about entertainment. they didn't give heed to God's warning now they are no more and all the people scattered.

pray much and abide in Him where you are consume with the jelousy of God that the glory would be given all to Him and not man.


_________________
Lisa

 2006/6/13 23:03Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: The ministry of music (or not)

I haven't had time to read through the other posts so I'm sorry if I repeat what someone else has said.


I appreciate your heart here brother. I do feel that the Levites gave us a good pattern in the music ministries. However I want to make just a couple of observations you might want to consider. The American church has delegated our times of praise as worship, and while worship can be praise and music, it's also so much more. I believe if I were you I would continue to keep my eyes on the Lord of Glory and seek to lead others into the presence of God using your talent, on a personal note?> This could be an opportunity for you to take up the cross of Christ and bow your will to the God who Judges in righteousness. As the story goes, in all FBI training in learning to detect counterfiet bills, what they do is study the real article or bill, than when they know the geniune dollar they can easily detect the counterfiet.

Even though the church has been moving toward entertainment, there have been large numbers of saints growing more discontent with all that stuff"! You know what I mean. You just continue to give a cup of cold water in Jesus' and keep your heart from offense, which will poison thoughs waters. I'll also pray for you and ask the Father to give you wisdom in what you should do and how you should handle this event in your life of ministry. God Bless


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/6/13 23:24Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re:

Hi Dozman, how you been doing brother.
Peace, Aeryck.


Quote:

Tears_of_joy wrote:
Brohter, have you heard one of these messages:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4224]The Power of Prayer (video)[/url] by Keith Daniel
[b]Description:[/b] This is a powerful video preached at brother Bill Gothard's church. This is part of Keith Daniel's 13th visit to America and he gives a solemn warning to the Church of Jesus Christ we must pray before its too late. There is a digression in the sermon on the topic of music but its application finds itself in that the church should not use wordly methods to win the world it will not work! The main thrust of the sermon is preached from ephesians 6 and the emphasis is that the church needs to get into warfare on their knees.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1865]Finished with the World[/url] by Keith Daniel
[b]Description:[/b] There is something very potent and powerful about this message. Its one of Keith Daniels first visits to America and this message calls for a great consecration and call back to apostolic Chrisitanity in our daily practice. Are you finished with the world? Don't listen to this message unless you are willing to be impacted and changed in very powerul way.

I believe they will be great encouragement to you. In both of them brother Keith is mentioning about music and he gives good examples. Life changing sermons.

Kire



Hi Kire,

I second that. Not just because he is from my country, but because I first listened to Finished with the world, and it challenged me to my roots. Though you are right about the first sermon taking a bit of digression, it still raises a very valid point about keeping the spirit of entertainment out of one's ministry. (the part where he talks about his children growing up in the ministry, and how easy it is to slip into the people praise, I think that was it, it's been awhile. Also he says some amazing stuff about the British Royals and Billy Graham witnessing to them in his early years... 8-)

I remember a sermon Derek Prince preached about music and something about fire and the altar...I forget now. (also relating to music...)

I still think Steve Camp's Thesis 107 - brings so much more to light, being musician an all, I applaude his insights/insider information. ;-)

Here is the link to Steve's 107 thesis. Peace


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/14 2:46Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7419
Mississippi

 Re: The ministry of music (or not)

Brother,

You have company...Your post reminded me of Dan Lucarini who wrote the book: "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions of a Former Worship Leader". (This book can be purchased from Amazon.) I would encourage you to get his book, read it and perhaps you will find yourself communicating with Bro. Dan on this issue. I think you will find him a person easy to talk to...I visited with him after he spoke at our church convention a few years ago.

Now about the entertainment aspect of it, I would like to share an observation. I have served as a volunteer at a Crises Pregnancy Center for many years. One day I got an inspiration and asked my clients "why do you go to church?" I asked several this question and I always got the same reaction and same answer. Reaction: they would sit there and think first - like as though they were a tad bit confused, then replied "it the music I enjoy!" This was NOT the answer I was expecting, sir! Brother, immorality is rampant in these churches and people love to go there because they love the music!

Years ago, revivalists used to say the right choice of music will greatly enhance their sermon. Some have also said music is a powerful means of bring about conviction in the hearts of people. History informs us how the old time evangelists utilized the talents of Holy Spirit inspired musicians to lead the music. Some even wrote their music and taught it to their audiences.

My question: what is wrong with church music that only entertains people? Is there not something very wrong when it makes unrepentant sinners comfortable instead of bringing conviction to them?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/6/14 2:51Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: DON'T SELLOUT !

Hi Ginnyrose,

You hit the nail on the head:

Quote:
My question: what is wrong with church music that only entertains people? Is there not something very wrong when it makes unrepentant sinners comfortable instead of bringing conviction to them?



I recall reading something that Larry Norman said, and then listening to a recent interview where he reminisses about how he actually fired many of the musicians at Solid Rock Records because they were no longer preaching Christ. They had begun to become no different than their pop and rock equivalents in the music industry they had emerged from. We have a lot to be grateful for, that there are many who heeded his and others warnings as well as others like Steve Camp who have committed to thesis 107 (reminscent of Martin Luther's 95 thesis, and are lifting Jesus up for the world to see.

Sometimes the lines get blurred in trying to crossover and reach out into the darkness, but we are told to be salt, so there is the real edge, not to compromise but to keep talking about Jesus !

I know what I have to do. I have to take all these thoughts to the closet and let the Lord convict me too, I need to change, not to sell out!

Thanks for that Ginnyrose.

In Christ,
Aeryck
:-P


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/14 3:06Profile
NONE4ME
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 20
Chicago, IL

 Re:

The saga continues...
I was able to get alone before the Lord, and he had me write down my burdens and He every one. This guy is a "hireling", but I still see there is no reverence to God. The pastor was so adamant in getting "order" that he has this guy on salary. He even questioned people asking about Mr. Entertainment's spirituality, but it's too aparrent. I'm afraid leadership, as well as the people have mistaken the flare, the exitement for the anointing, but I recall Art Katz (another ministry that has really helped me in this season) saying about keeping your soul still in the midst of the hoopla. If it is of God, then your spirit will be in agreement, but more times than not, I have found myself sitting like a bump on the log wondering if something was wrong with me. It has been uncomfortable, and when you have to serve in such a ministry, you have to stay on fire, and continue to fight lest you find yourself conforming, selling out as it was mentioned earlier.
It is also now apparrant that the pastor would love to clear out all the singers and start over with Fred(praise leader) and myself, but it won't gel. I can't agree to that
"Rehearsal" was ...eye opening. Prior, I talked to the leader, but ...
Not gonna belabor this anymore. Two years I have fought, testified, labor in prayer, intercession, but one thing I know, and that is I know my time is at hand as far as my present capacity (I cannot enable their comfort, and let them build on me, and make an ornament or an attraction because of the playing...the music, and people are still not free because they still put limits on the flow especially with their rush, rush metality. When at times God purposely allowed none of the singers to show I had to lead worship, (I'm not the best sounding singing in man's eyes) they rush to get somebody else that "sounds" good, because of fear of the people I guess. I do not say this prideful but just the point of the desires of the people.
This was a test for me and for them, for the true worship is more important to me, but for them it is the sound. I struggled with my sound, but in my heart I knew God was pleased and I wanted to just shut-up because of the rejection. I said I wouldn't sing because this was their desire, but that no longer matters...I am sent...because Christ has sent me Isa61, Luke4:18

I am glad God lead me here, for I was getting in a rut because of the spiritual wickedness, in this area, and I have ministering in this area for a time, seeing the same hardness of heart, almost believing this was the case with the body.
All the responses have bee on point, and God has through this shown about His body, internationally, and I'm exited again. If it were just the local body, I'd be in trouble, but there are saints around the world exalting Him, sold out believers.


_________________
Percell Kizer, Jr.

 2006/6/14 11:29Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Rejoice

Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice.

(The apostle Paul whilst in prison)


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/14 11:39Profile









 Re: Rejoice

For what its worth you might find this appropos:

[b]What is meant by "generation gap"?[/b]

This is an attempt by me to express my understanding of papers and other material concerning the subject of Diaprax or Diapraxis.

Much of my understanding has been gleaned from papers including one by Dean Gotcher “ Dialectic and Praxis; The end of the Ages” …1996 who draws from many writers and from whom he has formed his opinions and conclusions to what he calls “Madness”. My attempt is to encapsulate the gist of his thinking as well as my own thoughts based on my own experience in the church that for so many years has plagued my understanding of absolutism and the going along with whatever is presented that would require of me to submit. Some have accused me of being legalistic while in ignorance overlook the pursuit of holiness that is an absolute and that doesn’t lend itself to present day unity experience in the church. It is now unity at all costs regardless of the irreverence of the practice.

The _expression, "generation gap", is implied to indicate an actual lag in the understanding of the young; a biological condition soon to be corrected by time and enlightenment; enlightenment hopefully from God ordained authority. In reality, the generation gap is an artificial gap produced by consensus builders who have an agenda for unity; for oneness of thought and purpose. The process called diaprax is introduced deceptively into society; the family/church by "dripping" its untoward influence that will establish honest doubt in the minds of the adolescent, "little ones”, that will begin to eat away at the "God decreed" absolutism in authority, rejecting all such absolutism as the enemy/resistance to unity; the “going along to get along”.

Since its introduction in the 1930's succeeding generations have evidenced the success[s].

To whatever degree diaprax is completely successful will determine the time factor in which the family [Church] is no longer an independent/autonomous unit. God ordained church/family/person-hood will be obliterated.
What we presently observe and state to be a generation gap will, by a cancerous willful affliction, cease to be a gap when all absolutes have been absorbed into the cancer of Diaprax and destroyed by consensus -- when all are without faith in God; when all are given over to group solidarity in sentiment and belief.


Luke 18:8 (NASB-U)
"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"





:-(rm

 2006/6/14 11:42





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