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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid

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 Re:



Stever posted:
Quote:
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and all able bodied men and women were required to serve in the military… would you comply, or would you leave your country in order to not comply?
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Roadsign responded:
This question gives me only two options. One is fight and the other is flight – both are fear responses. Are there no other options???


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Stever concludes:

How did I know that you would not have a straight yes or no answer?

I knew in my heart that this would be your response. That is why I cut to the chase and asked the specific question above.



God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/14 10:23
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: wraping the flag around the cross

brethren
sister diane wrote this

Quote:
You see, a confusion arises when we wrap our flag around the cross too tightly. So we get this horrible dilemma:



i am led of God to speak to this issue. why should we wrap the cross in our flag? should we not rather wrap the flag in the cross. what good is it to say we are a Christian nation of this is not the case? by nature, the Christian is a different breed of person to the heathen. Should we as Christians then react to issues and events like the heathen do? God forbid! should our patriotism not be touched or defined by the cross? if it isn't how does it differ from the patriotism exhibited by a satanist, muslim, bhuddist etc? if we look at the nation of Israel, when they conducted their affairs as led by God, all went well, when they didn't things went downhill...fast. the way the did what they had to do was definately different. gideon led a small group of 300 against a large force, at jericho, they marched around the city singing...in both instances the Lord gave them victory.

perhaps our problem is that we are Americans, Canadians, Englishmen etc first and Christians somewhere down the line. ought we not be Christians first and then let that determine how we conduct ourselves as Americans, Canadians Englishmen etc? like sister diane i wonder how it looks before God when His children who are Christians kill eachother for country. which is a higher priority to you and me? God or country?

for us Christians our only concern if the glory of God. everything else must issue forth from that if we are to succeed and be effective for God. If we put God not first but only (seek ye first the kingdom of God ect) then everything else is taken care of. may the Lord quicken us to our sole existence for being, His glory and may He see this realization wrought in us to His glory. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/14 12:46Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Bro Ironman, and Sister Diane I would like to share this quote with you
"my first allegiance is not a flag, a country, or a man, my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood - it's to a king and a kingdom"
And at the risk of sounding un-patriotic, Christ does away with nationalities, there is neither Jew nor Greek, He does away with Social classes Bond or free, not even division along sex "neither male nor female, but instead He does something wonderful, He puts us in Himself as one "ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Why is it so hard to lay down Nationalistic pride and arrogance, and love our brothers and sisters.
I hope all of us are aware that ther are Iraqi Christians that have had ther lives destroyed not just by Saddam, but also our military activities.
Hopefully we are not so gullible as to swallow all that the media tells us about what is going on over there.
One other thing, there was a woman, a child, and another man also killed in the bombing. Are they expendable? Do the ends justify the means? Couldn't they just go in and take him, rather than stoop to do the very thing that he was guilty of? Just points to think about.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2006/6/14 15:46Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: nationalism

Ironman wrote:

Quote:
Should we as Christians then react to issues and events like the heathen do? God forbid! should our patriotism not be touched or defined by the cross? if it isn't how does it differ from the patriotism exhibited by a satanist, muslim, bhuddist etc?



I would like to make some comments about patriotism ( or nationalism) We should seek to know what the Bible has to say about it. First, I share this because I don’t think it is an unusual case. It is the outcome of nationalism:

Germany was reeling under the humiliation of defeat of WW1. They were saddled with unbearable debts demanded by the victors. So when Hitler rose up and brought about reforms, he was a welcome and wonderful leader. Even the Bible Colleges supported Nazism. They had a promising leader and philosophy. All were eager to do what ever was needed of them in order to restore their beloved nation from its shame and humiliation, and bring it to glory.

As time went on many saw morale compromises, but they were afraid to question for fear of ending up in a labor camp. Besides, there was a higher cause. And so the machine grew stronger. They were in it, with all their heart soul and mind – and their lives! By the time they knew it was not a good idea, it was too late.

So, I ask, where does one draw the line? How much nationalism is good? At what point does a Christian have to stand apart from it?

As Roaringlamb pointed out, in Christ there is no national identity, no Greek or Barbarian, no Canadian or American. In Christ, we are citizens of heaven – with Christ as our master. I don’t think it matters if our ruler is Ceasar, Nebudkudnezer, Bush, Stalin, or Harper.
Quote:
"my first allegiance is not a flag, a country, or a man, my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood_ it's to a knig and a kingdom"



We who are true followers live according to our true identity in Christ.

But we can’t expect our rulers or the vast majority of citizens to live like this if they don’t belong to him. They are from the world and live by the principles of the kingdoms of the world.

Give to God what is God’s, and to Caesar what is Caesar.
We will give our lives and our loyalty to the one we believe will save us. I ask, is it possible to give a bit of ourselves to each? Or must it be one or the other?

If we give ourselves to God, how might we respond to “Caesar” or his servants?
Biblical examples?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/6/14 16:06Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
perhaps our problem is that we are Americans, Canadians, Englishmen etc first and Christians somewhere down the line. ought we not be Christians first and then let that determine how we conduct ourselves as Americans, Canadians Englishmen etc?



Amen!

Oh thank you brother for this.


Quote:
like sister diane i wonder how it looks before God when His children who are Christians kill eachother for country. which is a higher priority to you and me? God or country?



this question still remains.

Quote:
for us Christians our only concern if the glory of God. everything else must issue forth from that if we are to succeed and be effective for God. If we put God not first but only (seek ye first the kingdom of God ect) then everything else is taken care of. may the Lord quicken us to our sole existence for being, His glory and may He see this realization wrought in us to His glory. AMEN.



Yes!

 2006/6/14 17:16Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis diane wrote:

Quote:
As time went on many saw morale compromises, but they were afraid to question for fear of ending up in a labor camp. Besides, there was a higher cause. And so the machine grew stronger. They were in it, with all their heart soul and mind – and their lives! By the time they knew it was not a good idea, it was too late.



the same which happened in Germany can happen elsewhere, after all Germany was considered the epitome of civilization. so let us be wary lest such a fate befall us here in America also. i think nationalism outside of God is no good because it comes from our flesh. our sense of nationalism must be touched and defined by God is it is to be what it should be. the heathen has a deep sense of national pride, should the Christian's sense of national pride be the same? i think not.

Quote:
But we can’t expect our rulers or the vast majority of citizens to live like this if they don’t belong to him. They are from the world and live by the principles of the kingdoms of the world.



as a result this puts that much more pressure for us to live in a manner pleasing to God and reflective of our relationship with Him and it's effect on us. this way God is made manifest to everyone.

Quote:
Give to God what is God’s, and to Caesar what is Caesar.
We will give our lives and our loyalty to the one we believe will save us. I ask, is it possible to give a bit of ourselves to each? Or must it be one or the other?



we can't serve 2 masters so i say we give ourselves wholly to God and through that giving of ourselves to God, giving Caesar what is his is done in the way God demands. ie we will pay our taxes cheefully and not try and evade them etc. however if the government in power makes laws which are contrary to God (although God Himself has appointed it) should our allegiance to heaven not become priority in that instance?

so much to consider


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/14 17:32Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Greetings everyone,

Quote:
Now then we are [b]ambassadors[/b] for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



I would like to express the thought that as ambassadors for the Kingdom of our Lord on earth, we can work through the means and agencies of the kingdoms of this world to further and promote the purposes of our own King. while I don't think anyone is suggesting we remove ourselves from public life I thought this point would be good for balance.

Something else also,

Brother Roaringlamb mentioned how some of our brothers and sisters have no doubt suffered or even had thier bodies killed during the currecnt fighting. I find some cloudy/murky areas in my own thinking on this subject, however I am willing to hold out the thought that the homegoing of God's elect children, even through war [i][b]may[/b][/i], or must even, in some respects, have a place in the providential workings of God.

Peace be with you all in Christ


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/6/14 18:11Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Chris

Quote:
I would like to express the thought that as ambassadors for the Kingdom of our Lord on earth, we can work through the means and agencies of the kingdoms of this world to further and promote the purposes of our own King. while I don't think anyone is suggesting we remove ourselves from public life I thought this point would be good for balance.



i think the balance is struck when we put the Lord first, from there everything else is taken care of, then we can be good citizens of whatever couuntry we live in.

Quote:
Brother Roaringlamb mentioned how some of our brothers and sisters have no doubt suffered or even had thier bodies killed during the currecnt fighting. I find some cloudy/murky areas in my own thinking on this subject, however I am willing to hold out the thought that the homegoing of God's elect children, even through war may, or must even, in some respects, have a place in the providential workings of God.



this is indeed true also


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/14 21:14Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Mine Eyes have seen the Coming of the Glory of the Lord ...


Greetings all :-D ...

i'm following this thread with great interest and have only posted to say that the words of The Battle Hymn of the Republic keeps coming to mind ...

BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; he hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword -- His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watchfires of a hundred circling camps, They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps; I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps -- His day is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never sound retreat, He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat; O be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant, my feet -- Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea, With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me; As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, While God is marching on.

Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! His truth is marching on.


i like history a whole lot, and am always fascinated that like the words of the Battle Hymn of the Republic as we men vie back and forth with one another be it verbally, or with sticks, stones, swords, shields, ships, guns, cannons, bombs, airplanes, rockets or nuclear weapons, His truth, His plan, His will goes marching on ...

i also am fascinated by the fact that somehow many folk think that what we "will" as men is somehow apart, seperate and above His "will" ... i certainly don't claim to understand how "man's will" operates within the confines of "His will" for as of late i've really been brought to the point of understanding that i don't really understand the workings of the Father at all, but personally i believe that nothing happens apart from the will of God, that somehow every event that transpires on this planet down to the death of a sparrow and below all serves toward His ultimate purpose and goal, and therefore i see the hand of a really long-suffering God in everything ...

The problem with we humans is that we can see His hands in what we think we understand Him having His hand in, but we argue, debate, fuss and fight with one another about what we can't see Him having His hand in ... So therefore even amongst saints we have those who vote because of God, and those who don't, those who enlist in military service to their country because of God, and those who don't ... The list is as endless as our debate, but in the meanwhile whether we agree or disagree God and His plan are ever marching on ... Some would say in spite of us (as i've often said), but actually it's because of us and via us that His plan keeps on marching ... All this crap that every generation from the fall is going thru (including now terrorism and the war in Iraq) has stemmed from one man and one woman's putting humanity at enmity not only with God, but with one another ... God the Father provided His Son to bridge the enmity gap between Him and us, which if we as individuals exemplified Christ to the fullest could even bridge that gap between one another - but it's obvious that we don't, even in Christ, for tho we're suppose to be we don't operate in the accord of oneness (how many denominations do we have) ... So even we saints go back and forth in debate about matters of is God of this or of that, while the plan, and more importantly the ultimate solution (the Revelation) of God, on the backs of mankind, governments and our international conflicts go marching on! ...

The Battle Hymn was written as a stab of explanation for the "judgment" of the Civil War that came upon this nation due to it's Federal governmentally sanctioned enslavement of an entire group of people toward the financial benefit of the nation ... Thus this stanza in reference to the Union soldiers, "As He (Christ) died to make men holy, let us die to make men free" ... This seems like a pretty noble cause, and even back then the debate amongst saints as to military service or not raged on, but it certainly did not stop God's march on to the Revelaton's fulfilment because even after this came both WWI (with saints still debating) and then WWII which argubley was probably the last war America could justify as solely a fight to keep men free ... Tho this may not make a lot of sense to some, i'm one who has come to believe that God does have a plan for each of us in our lives ... i also believe that (due to OT accounts) His hand may rest harder on some than on others, as i certainly believe this to be the case with me when i look back on my life ... i didn't have to worry about enlisting in the military (tho i wanted to be an airman) because i was raised JW (they don't do war) by a father whom i loved so much that it took me to age 28 to really rebel against ... When i was 17 i sat before a Selective Service Board as a CO, and after my JW tutored answers to their questions was given an "extreme hardship" status and was defered from service ... Was this by accident or by His design for my life? ... Was i just lucky to be born into an adamant JW household or did God in fact know exactly where He wanted me to be placed? ... God knows that had it been otherwise i probably would have been drafted, sent to Vietnam and more than likely killed ... In my subsequent dealings with our Lord i believe He saved me from that, toward something He has for me to do which i still sense to this day that i've not fully come to ...

i think the problem with us is this ... History (even that which has not transpired yet) is His-story ... God knows exactly where everything and everybody is going, and whether we're saved or heathen, pacifist or warrior, or whatever, His plan rides atop all that we do or don't do, and both facilitates His ultimate plan as time goes marching on ... Now in the midst of entertaining the mind-boggling brevity of the will/plan of God ask yourself what is my-story (which is the my-stery) in His-story, for i totally believe finding this out should be the ultimate quest of every Christians ...

My bottom line is to know His ultimate purpose for my life, tho how He gets me there i haven't the slightest idea, but in the meanwhile i do what only any of us can do and that's to continue to walk in the faith place we're all presently at ... We can do no more or less ... My final comments have to do only with what many saints call the grey areas like voting and military service ... i believe that if ones faith presently tells them to vote, or not to vote, then one should follow their faith ... i believe that if one's faith tells them to serve militarily for their country, or not, then one should follow their faith ... i'm a firm believer in the scripture that says "whatsoever is not of faith in sin", and that all that we do, or don't do, should be because of God ...

As during the time of the Civil War i believe America (mainly because the salt has lost its savor) is at the onset of His judgment/correction for continuing down the broad and spacious ... And i thank God that no matter what we think, don't think, agree or dis-agree on, His plan just keeps on marching on till His will is done on earth as it already is in heaven ...

Men have a tendency to think that our wars have all to do with us but i think there's more than meets the eye with this verse of The Battle Hymn ...

"He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword "

We all know the OT history of how God uses nation against nation, in Ezek. 38 He speaks of putting hooks in the jaws of Magog to lead them as He wants, and in the Revelation it says He gathers the nations to the place of Har-meggedon ... What is our puny "self-will" in comparrison to His "divine-will"? ...

This is a break down to the stanzas of The Battle Hymn, some may find this interesting ...

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1188.cfm

All glory, praise and honor to the Alpha and Omega, our only wise and true God ... Amen

 2006/6/15 12:58Profile





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