SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Abrahams Boosm

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Logic posted:

"It doesn't make sence that Enoch and Elijah go to heaven but the rest can not.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Stever:

Where is God keeping them now? This is not revealed to us in Scripture.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Logic continues:

They are a given to represeant a picture of the rapture.
Therefor they are in heaven.
2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It would not make sence to go up then back down to Abrahams Bosom if that is where it is.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Stever's response:

Abraham's bosom was for the Spirits of those that were saved, not for men of flesh and blood.

Both Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven, but where? They were still in their bodies of flesh and blood. God can do whatever he wants to do, I know that. However, there is no mention of where they are in Heaven. A special place, just for them. I don't know. It is not clear. Some Bible teachers think they are in a special place. I am not sure.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 16:39
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

thanks bro stever, i think i got it now.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/6 17:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Stever wrote:

Quote:
Abraham's bosom was for the Spirits of those that were saved, not for men of flesh and blood.

Both Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven, but where? They were still in their bodies of flesh and blood.



Why do you think that they didn't have Glorified bodies?
[b]Matthew 16:28[/b] [color=990000]Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.[/color]

We know that the Mount of Transfiguration is a view into Jesus Kingdom, therefore Elijah, just as Moses, would have been in his glorified body here;
[b]Matthew 17:3[/b] [color=990000]And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses [b]and Elias[/b] talking with him.[/color]

Quote:
there is no mention of where they are in Heaven. A special place, just for them. I don't know. It is not clear. Some Bible teachers think they are in a special place. I am not sure.


That is the reason for this thread.

I have been taught as you have on this subjuct, but I want to come to my own conclussion as to what is true.

I just recently have been thinking on this subject(the day I posted it) and I am finding out that Abraham's Bosom is his actual chest(hug and warm embrace) that he welcomes the old saints into heaven.

Abraham's Bosom is a term used to exress a welcome and thankfull gratitude.

Since Abraham is the father of our faith it is the faith of Abraham that they are comeing into heaven by.

 2006/6/6 17:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
thanks bro stever, i think i got it now.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

God bless you and be with you always, IRONMAN!

Steve :-D

 2006/6/6 17:38
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Stever
and may He also bless you and be with you always. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/6 17:52Profile









 Re: Firstfruits of the Resurrection

Logic posted:

Why do you think that they didn't have Glorified bodies?
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

We know that the Mount of Transfiguration is a view into Jesus Kingdom, therefore Elijah, just as Moses, would have been in his glorified body here;
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[b][color=0000FF]Jesus Christ, the Firstfruits of the Resurrection[/color][/b]

Stever's response to Logic:

Because Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection. He is the first man resurrected into a new glorified body, and those that believe in Him will follow at specified times. We will still be part of the "Firstfruits", part of the "First Resurrection".

1 Cor. 15:20-23 offers the teaching on this:
" 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Christ is the first of the Resurrection, and all believers will follow Christ.

The Bible reveals that there will be more than one resurrection and more than one judgment.

If we look in Matthew, we have a picture of Christ’s second coming to the earth, where he separates the Sheep from the Goats. Please notice that He comes as a thief, to kill and destroy. This description is given to the Jews by Jesus Christ, and occurs at the end of the Tribulation:

Matthew 25:31-34

31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

This is a description of the Goats, that were all lost, who were/will be sent to everlasting punishment.

“41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

However, this is not a description of the Great White Throne Judgment, where all of the damned are called from their graves, and are judged for their own works. This event (The Great White throne Judgment) takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, and will include all of unsaved dead, including those who were sent to punishment in hell at the end of the Tribulation:

The Harvest Imagery

In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.

It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).

Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).

Some people are startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. But keep in mind that the Rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only. Also, the book of Daniel makes it clear that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress" (Daniel 12:1-2).
So the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, occurs in three stages, beginning with Christ, continuing with the Church at the Rapture, and culminating with the Tribulation martyrs and the Old Testament saints at the return of Jesus.


The Resurrection of the Unjust

The second type of resurrection, "the resurrection of the wicked" (Acts 24:15), will take place all at one time at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. This is at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, the judgment of the damned (Revelation 20:11-15).

Every person who ever failed to relate to God in faith will be resurrected at this time, regardless of when he or she may have lived and died — whether before or after the Cross. This resurrection will also include the unjust who died during the Tribulation and the Millennium.
There will be no need for an additional resurrection of the righteous at the end of the Millennium, because all those born during that time who accept Jesus as their Savior will live to the end of the Lord's reign (Isaiah 65:19-20). "'As the lifetime of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,'. . . says the Lord" (Isaiah 65:22,25). In other words, life spans during the Millennium will be returned to what they were at the beginning of time, before the flood.

The Certainty of Judgment

Resurrection will be followed by judgment. Solomon wrote, "Fear God and keep His commandments . . . For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
The apostle Paul emphasized the certainty of judgment. In Romans 2:16 he wrote, "God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." And in Romans 14:10,12 he stated, "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God . . . So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God." The writer to the Hebrews summed it up succinctly: "It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

The Completed Judgment

But not all people are going to be judged at the same time. Just as there are going to be several resurrections (all part of the Firstfruits of the Resurrection started by Christ, and continuing as the “First” Resurrection) there are also going to be several judgments.
One judgment has already taken place. It is the judgment of believers for their sins.

This comes as a surprise to most Christians. Some find it hard to believe.

Let me put it to you in another way. If you are truly born again, then you will never stand before the Lord and be judged of your sins. That's because the judgment for your sins took place at the Cross.

You see, all your sins, and mine, were placed upon Jesus as He hung upon the Cross, and the wrath we deserve was poured out upon Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). He became our substitute. He took our judgment for sin (Romans 8:3 and Galatians 3:13).

If you have appropriated the blood of Jesus to your life by accepting Him as your Lord and Savior, then your sins have been forgiven. They have also been forgotten in the sense that God will never remember them against you again (Isaiah 43:25 and Hebrews 8:12).

Think of it — forgiven and forgotten! That is grace!

The Judgment of the Just

If the Redeemed will never be judged of their sins, then what will they be judged of, and when will the judgment take place?
The Bible teaches that the Redeemed will be judged of their works, not to determine their eternal destiny, but to determine their degrees of reward.

Christians do not work to be saved; they work because they are saved. In fact, the Bible says they are saved to do good works (Ephesians 2:10 and Titus 2:14). Such good works, if properly done, will be done in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 4:11) and for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

The Significance of Spiritual Gifts

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 that every person who is born again receives at least one supernatural spiritual gift from the Holy Spirit. A person may receive more than one gift. And, if you are a good steward of the gifts you receive, then you may receive additional gifts as you develop spiritually (Luke 19:26).
God expects us to use our spiritual gifts to advance His kingdom. This is what the judgment of works will be all about. Each of us who are redeemed will stand before the Lord Jesus and give an accounting of how we used our gifts to advance the kingdom of God on earth.
We will be judged as to the quantity of our works (Luke 19:11-27; Romans 2:6-7). We will be judged as to the quality of our works (1 Corinthians 3:10-14). Finally, we will be judged as to the motivation of our works ( 1 Corinthians 4:5).

I can imagine some famous evangelist being brought before the Lord for judgment.
"How did you use your spiritual gifts to advance my kingdom?" asks the Lord.
"I used my gifts as a teacher and evangelist to preach the gospel to millions," replies the preacher."Yes," says the Lord, "you certainly did that. But, I know your heart, and thus I know your motivation. You preached not because you loved Me but because you wanted to become famous. You wanted to have your picture published on the cover of Time magazine. You accomplished that in February of 2006. Here's your picture. That's all the reward I have for you!"

And then I can imagine the Lord calling up a little old lady that no one has ever heard of.
"Dear, on the day you accepted Me as your Lord and Savior, I gave you one gift — the gift of mercy. And every time someone was ill, you were the first to offer comfort and encouragement. You were the one who organized the prayer chain. Every time someone went to the hospital, you were the first to visit them. Every time someone died, you were the one who organized the meals. And you did all of these things simply because you loved me."

The Lord will give her a crown full of so many jewels that she will have a neck ache for eternity!

Seriously, there will be degrees of rewards. They will be manifested in the crowns we receive (2 Timothy 4:7-8), the robes we wear (Revelation 19:8), and the degrees of ruling authority which we exercise with the Lord (Luke 19:11-27).

The Timing of the Judgments

When and where will the judgment of the Redeemed take place? The Bible indicates the judgment of believers who have lived and died during the Church Age will occur in Heaven before the judgment seat of Jesus, immediately following the Rapture of the Church (2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 19:6-9).

Those who are saved and martyred during the Tribulation will be judged at the end of that period when they are resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ (Revelation 20:4). The Tribulation saints who live to the end of that terrible period are another group that will be judged at the Second Coming of Jesus in "the sheep and goat judgment" portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. The Old Testament saints will also be judged at the time of the Second Coming (Ezekiel 20:34-38).

All the unrighteous who have ever lived will be resurrected and judged at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus.

The Judgment of the Unjust

The terrible judgment of the unrighteous is pictured in Revelation 20:11-15. It is called the "Great White Throne" judgment.
We are told that the wicked also will be judged of their works. But their judgment will be radically different from the judgment of the Redeemed. Whereas the Redeemed are judged of their works to determine their degrees of reward, the lost are judged of their works to determine their eternal destiny.

And since no one can be justified before God by their works (Isaiah 64:6 and Ephesians 2:8-10), all will be condemned to Hell. That's why I call this judgment "the judgment of the damned."
The unjust are also judged for another reason. There are going to be degrees of punishment (Luke 12:35-48; 20:45-47).

There is a popular myth in Christendom that says, "All sin is equal in the eyes of God." That is not true. The only way in which all sin is equal is that any sin, whether a white lie or murder, condemns us before God and necessitates a Savior.

But all sin is not equal in the eyes of God. For example, Proverbs 6:16-19 lists seven sins that the Lord particularly hates, including "hands that shed innocent blood." And the Bible makes it very clear that idolatry is a sin that is especially heinous in the eyes of God (Exodus 20:3-5).

Because God considers some sins worse than others, there will be degrees of punishment (Revelation 22:12), and these degrees will be specified at the Great White Throne judgment.

A Call to Repentance

Where do we stand with respect to the inevitable judgment which we will face before the Lord?

If you are a Christian, do you know what spiritual gifts you have been given? Are you using them to advance the Lord's kingdom? Is your motivation a love of the Lord?

If you have never confessed Jesus as your Lord and Savior, do you really want to participate in the judgment of the damned? Do you realize that the Bible says, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"? That means Hitler and every vile person like him who has ever lived will one day make the confession of Jesus' lordship. You will too.

We should all make that confession now so that you we participate in the resurrection and judgment of the righteous. As we consider our decision, we should weigh carefully the following words from the book of Hebrews:

"Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him" — Hebrews 9:28

Notice carefully that this verse promises that for those who are ready for Him, Jesus will come "without reference to sin."

That is a wonderful promise.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 22:39
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hello Stever...

Again, I believe that you may have incorrectly "read between the lines" again with my posts. I do [u]not[/u] believe in purgatory. I am simply stating that some of the definitions of "[i]Abraham's bosom[/i]" (as listed in this thread) sound a lot like the doctrine of purgatory. In my opinion, purgatory is just as dangerous of a doctrine as the Mormon's "baptism for the dead." I believe that such doctrines give a false hope to those that did not give their hearts to Christ while alive.

My problem with some statements on this thread are not simply limited to a belief in a pseudo-purgatory. I just don't believe that it is wise to state as a fact what is merely your own personal conclusion. You write as if you [u]know[/u] beyond any minuscule uncertainty that "Abraham's bosom" exists as you believe it does. I cannot subscribe to such a belief with pure certainty. You may very well be correct. However, I would definitely be careful about making such bold doctrinal statements.

Without attempting to make this seem repetitive, I am disheartened by believers that boldly go about proclaiming their own personal (and sometimes [i]well-founded[/i]) conclusions as if they are an inarguable fact.

There are doctrines of the Church that are (or should be) indisputable by the true Body of Christ. These are mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2. And there are some doctrines that I feel quite certain about.

For instance, I believe in a pre-trib "rapture." Am I completely certain (without a single doubt) that a rapture will catch believers before the time of great tribulation? No. But as far as my conclusions are concerned, I feel secure in this enough to share it as a personal conclusion with others. Unfortunately, after mentioning my particular conclusion, I was bombarded with emails from well-meaning believers that warned me about being "led astray" by the anti-Christ! I tried to make it clear that I agree with Keith Green's statement about the rapture ("Pray for pre-trib, but prepare for post-trib"). However, these believers stated their position as if everyone else was blind to the "truth."

The same thing has been true with a wide variety of beliefs. Over the years, I have seen believers scolded for beliefs (pro and con) about tithing, eternal security, the gifts of the Spirit, personal behavior, etc... SermonIndex is a forum that includes believers from a wide range of doctrinal beliefs. While we may not always agree on the inconsequential, we can all believe on what is indisputable. We should not disrespect others with doctrinal rhetoric that is harshly (and quite sincerely) stated.

As is the case with "[i]Abraham's bosom[/i]," I do not think that you can state with complete integrity that your beliefs (or the beliefs of anyone else) are absolutely beyond dispute in this matter. Thus, it might be unwise to state them as fact (when they are merely a conclusion). Does this make any sense?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/6/6 23:04Profile









 Re:

Stever responds to ccchhhrrriiisss:

If you feel the way that you do on this issue, then it is best for you to be silent.

I feel that Scripture supports the position that I have taken. This is not alegory, as I have stated previously. Alegories never mention specific names of people or specific locations. These Words are from Chist himself.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/7 0:15
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

What about Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration and this one: Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Enoch most certainly is with God. Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Do you think this is the same translation as in:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The ones that came out of the graves at Jesus's resurrection, doesn't say they were with the Lord, It says they walked into town, Jesus was still on the earth also. All very un understandable. I have ideas but no conclusions.

In Christ: Phillip

P.S. These things are in the word, what do we do with them. Keep asking, I quess.
:-? :-? :-? :-?


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/7 1:23Profile









 Re:The Resurrection that provides eternal life

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
and this one: Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response: These, resurrected from the dead did not receive new resurrected bodies like Christ's. They died, just like Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead.

The resurrection that we are discussing is the "Firstfruits". Christ was the first of the "Firstfruits" of the resurrection. He resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the first day of the week, and also the day of the celebration of the "Firstfruits". Jesus is alive, at this minute, in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of the father. The other people you mention above are in heaven, waiting for the resurrection.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Christ in you posted:

Enoch most certainly is with God.

Stever responds:

Yes, but God took Him in his body of flesh and blood. The Bible tells us that Christ is the first man resurrected from the dead in a glorified body.

Enoch will probably receive his resurrection during the Tribulation if he is one of the two witnesses.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Christinyou posts:
What about Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.

Stever responds:
This again was only a preview of coming events. Christ was not glorified yet, and neither were Moses and Elijah. Since that time we know that Christ has been glorified, in His new body of flesh and bone. However, Moses and Elijah will have to wait until later to receive theirs.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Christinyou posted:
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Do you think this is the same translation as in:


Stever replies:

God took him "Enoch", but he has not received his resurrection body yet like Christ.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Christ in you posted:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Stever responds:
You have just described the rapture, that occurs before the Tribulation and provides the dead in Christ, as well as those that are living (and saved) on the earth with new resurrected bodies, like that of Jesus Christ. Bodies in which they will live eternally with.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Christinyou posted:

The ones that came out of the graves at Jesus's resurrection, doesn't say they were with the Lord, It says they walked into town, Jesus was still on the earth also. All very un understandable. I have ideas but no conclusions.

Stever responds:
Again, these men and women died. They resurrected and came back to life like Lazarus (Mary's brother) who had been in the grave for 4 days, and then died at a later date. They were not glorified like Christ was, and neither was Lazarus.


The difference here is the resurrection to eternal life that believers receive when they finally get their glorified bodies like that of Jesus Christ:
Luke 24:36-45
" And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE.And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, HAVE YE ANY MEAT (FOOD)? And they gave him a piece of a BROILED FISH, AND OF AN HONEYCOMB. And he took it, AND DID EAT IT BEFORE THEM. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


In Christ: Phillip

P.S. These things are in the word, what do we do with them. Keep asking, I quess.
:-? :-? :-? :-?


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Stever concludes:

We must study, to show ourselves approved unto God, a Workman that needs not to be ashamed, and be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth (The Bible).

The Bible teaches us all things. It has all things necessary for Doctrine.

1 Timothy 4 tells us:
9. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11. These things command and teach. 12. Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/7 2:00





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy