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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Abrahams Boosm

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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: "Soul Sleep"

Hi Logic,

It's jumping out of sequence from another thread but this may be of some help:

CHAPTER 20: "CONCERNING SOUL SLEEPING."

We are living in the times when the winds of heresy are blowing in every direction. One of these foolish heresies is "that the soul of man sleeps in utter unconsciousness from the time of death until the resurrection." In all those Scriptures where death is called a sleep, the plain reference is to the body. The only sleep that the Scriptures ascribe to the soul is to be asleep in sin. Sin acts upon the soul as opium on the body, rendering it unconscious of the things of eternity. Hence the word says, "Awake, thou that sleepest!"

We find in the Scripture the following facts to disprove the sleep of the soul in a disembodied state:

1. That the soul has a natural constitution of immortality.

We are told by Paul, in the 15th of 1st Corinthians, that Adam was made a living soul, but that Christ was made a quickening Spirit. The word "living soul" signifies an immortal soul; but Adam had no power to communicate spiritual life after his fall. On the other hand, Christ not only had an immortal soul, but power to regenerate other souls, and quicken them with the life of God. This is the difference between the first and second Adam.

We are told, in Ecclesiastics, 3rd chapter, that the spirit of man goeth upward, but that the spirit of a beast goeth downward; proving that at death the soul of man, in its mode of existence, is opposite to the soul of beast. We read in Zechariah, 12th chapter, that the "Lord formeth the spirit of man within Him." And the Apostle speaks of an "inner man." All such scripture plainly teaches that the soul has a formation and constitution independent of the physical life.

2. We read in several places that after persons had died, they were raised from the dead by their souls coming back into their bodies, showing that it was immortal.

In 1st Kings, 17th chapter, we read the account of Elijah's raising the widow's son from the dead. It says: "And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." A similar passage is found in the 18th chapter of Luke, where Jesus raised from the dead the daughter of Jairus, when He said: "Maid, arise; her spirit came again, and she arose straightway." These Scriptures prove that the soul is a conscious, immortal personality; that it can exist in the body and out of the body, and returns again into the body.

3. The Scriptures speak of the soul going down to hell after the body is dead.

In the 14th chapater of Isaiah, we have an account of the death of the tyrannical king of Babylon, and his descent into hell. He was such a great man that at his death "hell from beneath was moved to meet him at his coming;" and the other wicked kings, who had gone into hell before him, "rose to meet him at his comming" and exclaimed, "Art thou become like unto us!" We are also told, in verse 16, that they "looked narrowly upon him, and considered him," exclaiming, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms!" And while all this was taking place in hell, we are told that his body was in the grave "covered with worms." (See verse 11.)

In the 10th chapter of Matthew, Jesus warns us "not to fear them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell," in which Jesus shows clearly that the soul can exist apart from the body; that it cannot be killed, as the body can, and that it can be in hell apart from the body.

The Lord also tells us of an actual occurrence, in the 16th of Luke, of a "curtain rich man" that died, "and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment." This man's soul had been asleep in sin all his life, and he never woke up to the reality of eternal things until he awoke in hell. This is the condition of millions today. They will never get their souls' opened until they open them in hell.

4. That the soul is alive and conscious when separated from the body is clearly shown from a great many Scriptures.

We see, in Ecclesiastes, 12th chapter, that at death the dust of man's body "returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns unto God who gave it."

"Life is real, life is earnest,
And the grave is not its goal,
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul."


Jesus told the penitent thief on the cross that before that day ended he would be with Him in Paradise. (See Luke 23: 43.) The real man to whom Christ was talking was not the fleshly body which was soon buried, but the immortal spirit in the body. He says, "Thou shalt be with Me in Paradise," showing that the real man would be conscious and happy in a world of bliss, away from all the sufferings of the body.

Paul tells us, in 2nd Corinthians, 5th chapter, that "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord," but that we who have the earnest of the Spirit are "willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." He also tells us, in the same Epistle, 12th chapter, that at the time he was stoned at Lystra, and left for dead, he was caught up into Paradise, and that whether he was in the body or out of the body he could not tell, and that while in that state he heard unspeakable words; proving conclusively that the real, thinking, knowing soul can exist apart from the body, with all its faculties and powers intact.

Peter tells us, in his Epistle, 3rd chapter, that after Christ was crucified, "He went unto the spirits in prison, who had died in the Flood, and proclaimed unto them His victory," showing that the souls of those drowned in the Flood were alive, and had been confined in a place of imprisonment ever since the days of Noah.

5. The recognition of souls in the disembodied state is expressly stated in nearly all the foregoing Scriptures.

The souls in hell immediately recognized the king of Babylon, in Isaiah 14. The rich man in hell at once recognized Abraham and Lazarus across the impassable gulf; and Abraham noticed his lost kinsmen. Moses had died, and his body was buried in one of the valleys in the mountains of Moab; but we read, in Luke 9: 30, that at the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him, and that they were recognized by three apostles. When Stephen was being stoned he saw the heavens opened and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and he said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." This demonstrates the fact that the spirit of Stephen was not going to die or sleep with his body, and that he recognized the Savior in heaven. When St. John was in Patmos, receiving the revelation, he "saw the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held, and he heard them cry, "How long, O Lord?" (Rev. 6: 9-11). This proves that these disenbodied martyrs were not asleep; that they were recognized by the Apostle; that they possessed all their faculties; that they could pray; and that they were earnestly expecting the time to receive their resurrected and glorified bodies.

These Scriptures teach that souls in the disembodied state possess all their mental faculties-thought, memory, reason, perception-unimpaired; and that they have the same moral character that they had in the body; that they have suffering or joy; torment or comfort; that they recognize each other; that they can communicate with each other; that they take a great interest in the affairs of this world in reference to its destiny.

In confirmation of these Scriptures, volumes could be compiled of dying sinners who have had glimpses into hell, and dying saints who have had visions into heaven, and recognized the presence of angels and departed friends ere they left the body. For a Christian to be so deceived as to believe that the soul is unconscious after death, shows either a lack of Scripture knowledge, or a mind that is deluded by Satan.

G.D. Watson


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Mike Balog

 2006/6/3 0:03Profile
crsschk
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Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Abraham's bosom

A couple, more directly to the question.

[b]Abraham’s bosom[/b] - This is a phrase taken from the practice of reclining at meals, where the head of one lay on the bosom of another, and the phrase, therefore, denotes intimacy and friendship. See the notes at Mat_23:6. Also Joh_13:23; Joh_21:20. The Jews had no doubt that Abraham was in paradise. To say that Lazarus was in his bosom was, therefore, the same as to say that he was admitted to heaven and made happy there. The Jews, moreover, boasted very much of being the friends of Abraham and of being his descendants, Mat_3:9. To be his friend was, in their view, the highest honor and happiness. Our Saviour, therefore, showed them that this poor and afflicted man might be raised to the highest happiness, while the rich, who prided themselves on their being descended from Abraham, might be cast away and lost forever.

Albert Barnes

[b]and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:[/b] by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham; as when the mother of the seven sons, slain by Caesar, saw her youngest going to be sacrificed (p).

"she fell upon him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and said unto him, my son, לך אצל אברהם אביכם, "go to Abraham, your father", and tell him, thus saith my mother, &c.''

and sometimes, as here, by being in his bosom. So it is said (q), that Eliezer his servant (Abraham's, the same name with Lazarus) מונה בחיקו, "is laid in his bosom": and which may refer to the account in the Talmud (r), that when R. Benaah, the painter of caves, came to the cave of Abraham, he found Eliezer, the servant of Abraham, דקאי קמיה, "standing before him". And it is also said (s) of Rabbi, when he died, היום יושב בחיקו של אברהם, "this day he sits in the bosom of Abraham"; for as it was usual with them to represent the joys of heaven by a feast, so the partaking of them, by sitting down at a table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; see Mat_8:11 and as their manner at meals was by lying along on couches at eating; he that lay next another might be said to lie, or lean, in his bosom: hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world. The ascension of Christ is expressed by a being "carried up into heaven", Luk_24:51 and here he is entered, and has been received, and will be retained, until the time of the restitution of all things; here he is glorified in human nature, sits at the right hand of God, and appears in his presence, on the behalf of his people; and indeed, the ends of his going there, were to receive gifts for them, to be their advocate and intercessor, to take possession of heaven in their name, and prepare that for them, and them for that; and hither "he was carried by angels": these were the chariots in which he rode; and these the guard that attended him, when he was seen, looked upon, and gazed at by them with adoration, faith, and wonder; which shows the ministration of angels to him, and seems to set forth the glory and magnificence in which he ascended; and this agrees with the notions of the Jews, that when good men die, their souls are immediately received by angels, and taken under their care, and carried to heaven. So one of their paraphrasts (t) having mentioned the garden of Eden, which is but another name for heaven with them, adds,

"into which no man can enter but the righteous, whose souls are "carried" thither, ביד מלאכיא, "in the hand", or "by the means" of angels.''

And elsewhere they say (u),

"with the Shekinah come three ministering angels to receive the soul of a righteous man.''

Particularly it is said of Moses, at the time of his death (w), that

"the holy blessed God descended from the highest heavens, to take the soul of Moses, and three ministering angels with him.''

And sometimes they say (x), not only three angels, but three companies of angels attend at such a time: their words are these;

"when a righteous man departs out of the world, three companies of ministering angels meet him; one says to him, "come in peace"; and another says, "walking in his uprightness" and the other says, "he shall enter into peace", &c.''

No mention is made in this parable of the burial of this man, nor any words used expressive of it, or that in the least hint it. The reason is, because Christ lay so short a time in the grave, and he was not left there, nor did he see corruption; but in a very little while was raised from the dead, and delivered from the power of the grave; when, after some stay on earth, he was attended by angels to the highest heavens: for this is to be understood, not of his soul being had to paradise immediately upon his separation from the body; but of his ascension to heaven after his resurrection, when he was escorted by angels thither.

John Gill


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Mike Balog

 2006/6/3 0:17Profile









 Re:

Stever responds to Logic:

It seems to me that Paradise was a place in the Old Testament where saved man was waiting for Christ to come, to take away all sin, in order that he could go to heaven and be with God.

Today, after the Cross, Paradise is synomonious with Heaven, where God and saved man dwell together. Although the souls of men and women that have died in faith are there with God (in Heaven), time has ended for them because God is outside of time and space, and they are there, dwelling with God. At the rapture both those before the Cross, and those after the Cross will recieve their new resurrected bodies and be just like HIM (Jesus), at the same moment in time:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (those believers that are living) shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
[2 Cor 15:52-53 and others]

Also, the Saints will come with Christ at the second coming. Please notice that at the rapture he comes for His Saints--- in the Air, at the 2nd coming He comes with His Saints to the earth:

[Zechariah 14:1-5]
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/6/3 1:43
GoPreacherGo
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Joined: 2006/6/1
Posts: 2
California

 Re: Abrahams Boosm

Hope you don't mind that i join in...

Here's another perspective to look from:
Is Luke 16.19-31 a parable?
In none other parable does Jesus address men by their names, this text does teach us that those who will partake in hell will have all their sences, they'll retain their memory forever and ever, they will be in agony, the biggest prayer meeting in the universe is going on RIGHT NOW, in hell, not for there own souls salvation they have a knowlegde of their ETERNAL damnation, rather they cry the same prayer as the rich man:

luke 16.27-28
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father,
that thou wouldest SEND him to my fathers house: 28. For I have five bretheren; that he may testify unto them, LEST they also come into this place of torment.

note: the words SEND and LEST(i capitalised them) there is a consiquence if one is not sent But who will go?
AND what will they say?
note again with me what Abraham said:

luke 16.29 "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

Now obviously Moses and the prophits are dead but the words GOD spoke through them are not!

Jesus said mark 16.15 "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

-In this text Jesus answers both our questions-
1.WE GO...he was not just speaking to those who been praying for the last ten years for revival, but to you and me (and if we spent more time putting legs to our prayers we would have revival)
2. WE PREACH the GOSPEL...by the by how does
the Law(Moses), and the prophets fit into all this, into the gospel? well, glad you asked:

Well i suppose you'd all agree with me, um did i say me, i meant the BIBLE, -when i say that one of the very first steps in obeying the gospel is acknowlegding our sin before God, it's bibical:
however...
romans 7.7 "...I had not know sin, but by the law:"
what on earth does Paul mean? i had not known sin but by the , the what...well sure any man can say i'm not perfect yeah i've done wrong, i've stolen AGAINST A MAN, i've LIED TO A MAN, and so on,... but see the bible says that we've sinned against a Just GOD, as king David said
psalm 51.4 "Against thee, thee only, have i sinned," David also said that he meditated in God's what day and night? -His LAW
see, here's the biblical definition of sin:
1john3.4 " Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
this verse simply states that to sin is to break God's law, for sin is breaking to law,
note: whose law? - God's law therefore our sin is against Him and Him only, see we don't break man's law when we sin, WE BREAK GOD'S LAW
(the TEN COMMANDMENTS)
and law without consiquence is just good advice

but because God is Just, Righteous, Pure, Holy,& Love itself, He give's ALL MEN an opportunity to turn from to Repent from their sin, before he comes to Judge the world in Righteousness.
That is why Christ died,- to redeem us from the curse of the Law -and what more could that curse be, but the consiquence itself: HELL
WHO of you have ever broken the ten commandments
ever stolen, blasphemed by taking God's holy name in vain, ever lusted(Jesus says Same as adultry-matthew5.27-28), but you know what even if you've just ever lied?, because james2.10 says"For whosover shall keep the whole law,and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all...
so if lieing was all He had on you...
revelation21.8"...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimestone: which is the second death."
Hell is the curse of the law, this is why the rich man cried out SEND...LEST, you know what chew on this for----ever, the rich man is still in torment no less pain than when he cried out for even just one drop of water, 'twould be so priceless.
God says: acts3.19"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,..." acts17.30-31"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent:31Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousnes..."
Christ tell's us to go, hurry give them a parachute too before the plain crashes
hebrews9.27"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:"
No one can escape death, only the sting of it, every man will die , and God has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation, of bringing people back to Him.

Answer God's call His command to "GO"
And answer the prayer of hell BE SENT/ LEST

Can you LOVE God, and not care that your neighbor goes to Hell???

it's good to study these different topics, but let it NOT be the soul devotion of our christianity, or consume our time more than giving sinners the Glorious Gospel of our LORD JESUS!!!!
-Steven W. Rodriguez


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Steven W. Rodriguez

 2006/6/3 12:09Profile
GoPreacherGo
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 Re:

Dearest Logic,

What is your stance on pergatory??

Can you support it Biblically??

Steven W. Rodriguez


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Steven W. Rodriguez

 2006/6/3 13:18Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

"""Now obviously Moses and the prophits are dead but the words GOD spoke through them are not!

Jesus said mark 16.15 "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." """

Preach what Gospel, the Gospel of Moses, which is the Law?

This Gospel: Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What baptism? Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This is not Moses' gospel.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/6/3 15:15Profile
letsgetbusy
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 Re:

C i y,

I think what preach is saying, and what Christ was saying with the parable, is that God has always sent men to preach to the masses on behalf of God. It was at one time Moses, then other prophets, then Jesus Himself, now us.

And technically, Moses did preach the gospel:

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

And Moses was a partaker in the grace of Christ, which saved Moses, not his keeping of the law:

1 Cor 10:

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

However, if you are referring to the fact that Moses gave the law, we, as well, are supposed to preach the law to prepare the heart for grace. This is not only Ray Comfort's teaching, but also Luther, Spurgeon, Wesley, Finney, Moody, Reidhead, and many other giants of the faith.

Paris Reidhead's, 'The Right Use of the Law':

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?commentView=itemComments&lid=40


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Hal Bachman

 2006/6/3 23:44Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

GoPreacherGo wrote:

Quote:
Dearest Logic,

What is your stance on pergatory??

Can you support it Biblically??

Steven W. Rodriguez


I am totaly against pergatory and I am proposing it is Abrahams' Bosom being the same place if it is a place other than in heven with Christ

If Abraham is a place of the righteous dead and not in heaven, then that is what pergatory is.

My theory is that when Jesus spoke of Abrahams' Bosom, HE was sayin that Lazerus was sent to hevan through the faith of abraham witch is his bosom.

 2006/6/4 16:56Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Stever wrote:

Quote:
It seems to me that Paradise was a place in the Old Testament where saved man was waiting for Christ to come, to take away all sin, in order that he could go to heaven and be with God.
Today, after the Cross...



You are forgetting that there is no before and after cross with GOD, because of this verse...

[b]Rev 13:8[/b] [color=990000] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b][/color]
And
[b]Rom 4:17[/b] [color=990000]GOD....calleth those things which be not as though they were.[/color]

There was no need for a place to wait for Jesus to come and die on the cross, even you agree that...
Quote:
God is outside of time and space



I may be a little slow on answering in this thread untill tuesday, because my internet is out untill then.

 2006/6/4 17:22Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
actually Abraham's Bosom is part of the holding place called hell. hell is made up of 2 parts, Abraham's Bosom which is the holding place of the righteous, and a holding place for the damned. Nowhere in canon is this place mentioned other than in the gospel in question. the explanation of what hell is is in the book of enoch. hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire, which is the hell we think of as being hell proper, the final hell. This is where the saints of old were held until Christ came to die. Christ was indeed slain from the foundations of the world, however for whatever reason the o.t. saints didn't go straight to heaven after death but waited in this place which is also calles sheol. when Christ died, He emptied it so noone goes to Abraham's bosom any more, but straight to heaven. i'm unsure if the part of hell for the damned is still in use though as a holding place for the damned still but it will be used yet again when the horsemen of the apocalypse ride, namely the pale horse which is followed by hell when the rider kills 1/4 of all men by various means.

in short the concept of purgatory may be based on hell (abraham's bosom and the holding place of the damned) but once one went to either place, his fate was sealed. catholics believe one can be prayed out of purgatory but this is a lie, once one is on the other side of the grave there is no repentance possible nor can one fall from grace.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/6/5 11:21Profile





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