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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Abrahams Boosm

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Abrahams Boosm

When Abraham died, did he go to Abrahams Boosm?

Please give me your comments, because I am formulating a theory.

This thread will help confirm thoughts on this subject.

 2006/5/31 18:50Profile









 Re: Abrahams Bosom

Stever responds:

In the Book of Luke Christ told us about this place----Abraham's Bosom. A place where the prophet Abraham was confined to. In the parable, Christ compares Abraham's Bosom, where those who will eventually go to heaven live, with Hell, where all sinners go when they die:

Luke 16:19-31
19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In the Book of Psalms we read the prophecy that the Messiah will take "Captivity Captive":
Psalms 68:18-19
" 18. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them. 19. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

XXXXXXXX

In the New Testament it is revealed to us that Christ has fulfilled this prophecy, and also tells us that before ascending he descended to the lower parts of the earth:

Ephesians 4:7-10

7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Psalms 16 gives us more insight in that it tells us that Christ (Messaih) will not be left in hell and that he will not see corruption:

Psalms 16:9-11
9. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

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In the new testament, after the cross, Paul tells us that to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now that the sin problem is taken care of, we all go immediately to heaven!

2 Cor 5:6-8
" 6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I hope this is what you wanted, Logic.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/6/1 0:03
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I know all about that you posted.

I am formulating a theory because My friend and I was disscussing this and he brought up pergetory and how simular it is to Abraham's Bosom.

my theory is that Abraham's Bosom is only a name for heaven because of Abraham's faith that the pre cross believer had.

Bosom:
1:The chest of a human: (He held the sleepy child to his bosom.)
a) A woman's breast or breasts.

2: The part of a garment covering the chest or breasts.

3: The security and closeness likened to being held in a warm familial embrace: (We welcomed the stranger into the bosom of our family.)

4: The chest considered as the source of emotion.

[b]Romans 10:9[/b] [color=990000] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt [b]believe in thine heart[/b] that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[b]10:[/b] For [b]with the heart man believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[/color]

And

[b]Romans 4:3[/b] [color=990000] For what saith the scripture? [b]Abraham believed God[/b], and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/color]

[b]Ezekiel 3:21[/b] [color=990000]Nevertheless if thou warn the [b]righteous man[/b], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.[/color]

Many were righteous in those days because of Abrahams' example of faith.

 2006/6/1 15:49Profile









 Re:

Stever responds to Logic:

PARADISE is only mentioned 3 times in Scripture. Once, by Jesus Christ, before his death and resurrection, Once by Paul, and once by Christ again in Revelation:



Luke 23 tells us that Abrahams bosom was called Paradise, before Christ’s resurrection:

39. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41. And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in PARADISE.


2nd Cor 12 indicates to us that Heaven is now referred to as Paradise:

2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.


In Revelation 2:7, we find Paradise mentioned again, which describes Heaven:

7. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.


God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/6/1 17:46
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Is it possible that the captives were held by death, and that was the prison? Not really a place, but a state. Like OT saints were resting until Christ returned? Not spiritually hanging around, just spiritually asleep?

Just a thought. Is there any Scripture that contradicts this idea?


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/6/1 22:01Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

""Many were righteous in those days because of Abrahams' example of faith.""

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is what precedes this scripture.

Romans 3:20-22 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Israel could not be justified, they would not believe God about what He says about His Son. They Killed Him.

It is the Faith of Jesus Christ that makes one righteous. Not our faith in Jesus Christ. The Father's Faith in Jesus Christ given to us by the Son, to those that believe. None righteous. Only One Righteous and that is God.
How can anyone be righteous you ask? The answer, none can be. The Holy Spirit came to convict of what? John 16:7-15 Nevertheless I tell you the truth;

It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,

I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

We are convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit. "The Comforter will not come to you", As long as Jesus is Hear. That means the Comforter was never Hear as He will be in you because before He was only with you. Why must the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin? Because none would believe on Him, that includes Israel and none that are righteous. Being convicted by the Comforter that is now come because Jesus Has left this world and come again in the Spirit of every believer, It is The Holy Spirit that came that would birth the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in the believer, just like the Power of The Holy Spirit came to Mary the Mother of Jesus, producing a special body that God has prepared for Him before the foundation of the world the only body in the world that could be God's sacrifice to redeem the son's of God, of whom we are because we have been convicted of sin and believe on the Name of the Son of God. We are saved, Israel in not saved yet. Jesus Christ is our Righteousness by His Faith of the Father born again in us that now we live by the Faith of the Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/1 22:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

letsgetbusy wrote:
Is it possible that the captives were held by death, and that was the prison? Not really a place, but a state. Like OT saints were resting until Christ returned? Not spiritually hanging around, just spiritually asleep?

Just a thought. Is there any Scripture that contradicts this idea?


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

Spiritual sleep is a false teaching of the 7th Day Adventist Church, and is doctrine that is not found in the Christian Church.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/6/2 0:04
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

letsgetbusy wrote:

Quote:
Is it possible that the captives were held by death, and that was the prison? Not really a place, but a state. Like OT saints were resting until Christ returned? Not spiritually hanging around, just spiritually asleep?



Not only held by death but [b]the law[/b] kept us in bondage.
[b]Galations 5:1[/b] [color=990000]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.[/color]

Stever wrote:
Quote:
Spiritual sleep is a false teaching of the 7th Day Adventist Church, and is doctrine that is not found in the Christian Church.



What do you mean? Jesus believed in this.
[b]Matthew 9:24[/b] [color=990000]He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.[/color]

There are many other verses that talk about sleep.

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
Many were righteous in those days because of Abrahams' example of faith

[b]Romans 3:10[/b] [color=990000]As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:[/color]

This is what precedes this scripture.

[b]Romans 3:20-22[/b] [color=990000]Therefore [b]by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight[/b]: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/color]


I agree that [b]by the deeds of the law[/b] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, but [b]through faith we are justified[/b] or made righteous.

This is what I ment as, "Many were righteous in those days because of Abrahams' example of faith"

[b]2Peter 2:7[/b] [color=990000]And delivered [b]righteous[/b] Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:[/color]

Lot was only righteous not by the deeds of the law but through faith.
[b]Romans 3:30[/b] [color=990000]Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision [b]through faith.[/b]
[b]:31[/b] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. [/color]

[b]James 2:21[/b] [color=990000]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, [b]when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar[/b]?[/color]

This "work" that James described about Abraham isn't of the law but through his faith

[b]Romans 4:2[/b] [color=990000]For if Abraham were justified by works(of the law), he hath where of to glory; but not before God.[/color]
[b]Romans 3:28[/b] [color=990000]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified through faith without the deeds of the law.[/color]
[b]Romans 4:10[/b] [color=990000]How was it(righteousness) then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.[/color]

So, there was righteous men before the Cross & Resurection.

Since they were Righteous, they all when to be with Jesus and next to Abraham in heaven by the example of Abrahams' faith the father of our faith and not a place called Abrahams' Bosom.

And so they were resting on his faith which is why the term Bosom is used.
One rests in or on anothers bosom.

Look at it this way:
[b]Luke 16:22[/b] [color=990000]And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into [b]Abraham's bosom:[/b] the rich man also died, and was buried;[/color]

The Good News Bible puts it this way:
"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried,"

This make sence by compairison with this verse which was at the Supper of the LORD:
[b]John 13:23[/b] [color=990000] Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.[/color]

 2006/6/2 11:41Profile
Treasureak
Member



Joined: 2006/4/28
Posts: 8


 Re:

Logic,

When you get a chance, may you please expound on the rich man asking Abraham if Lazarus could deep his finger in the water. Thanks

I really :-)would like to participate in this thread, but I see that others have given there own theory on purgatory. Placing the purgatory to the side, there is so much that can be said about this story

 2006/6/2 12:30Profile









 Re:

Logic posted:

"What do you mean? Jesus believed in this.
Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

So, based upon your understanding of the word "sleep", the above refers to Jesus and his raising the maid from "sleep"??

Or, that Jesus Christ never DIED on the cross, he just gave up the Ghost and went to "sleep"?

This is Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary definition of sleep:

1. To take rest by a suspension of the voluntary exercise of the powers of the body and mind. The proper time to sleep in during the darkness of night.

2. To rest; to be unemployed; to be inactive or motionless; as, the sword sleeps in its sheath.

3. To rest; to lie or be still; not to be noticed or agitated. The question sleeps for the present.

4. To live thoughtlessly. We sleep over our happiness.

[b][color=FF0000]5. TO BE DEAD ; to rest in the grave for a time. I Thessalonians 4.[/color][/b]

6. To be careless, inattentive or unconcerned; not be vigilant.
SLEEP, n. That state of an animal in which the voluntary exertion of his mental and corporeal powers is suspended, and he rests unconscious of what passes around him, and not affected by the ordinary impressions of external objects. Sleep is generally attended with a relaxation of the muscles, but the involuntary motions, as respiration and the circulation of the blood, are continued. The mind is often very active in sleep; but its powers not being under the control of reason, its exercises are very irregular. Sleep is the natural rest or repose intended by the Creator to restore the powers of the body and mind, when exhausted or fatigued.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Please note #5 above and compare it to the rest of the definitions.

The 7th Day Adventists believe in this FALSE DOCTRINE OF "SOUL SLEEP" (SOUL SLEEP- THAT OUR SOULS ALL SLEEP, WHILE WE ALL WAIT FOR THE RESURRECTION), [b][color=0000FF]that has never been part of Christian Orthodoxy [/color][/b].

Sleep is only a reference to death. When the believer died before the cross, his soul went to Abrahams bosom, awaiting for the Messiah to eliminate sin. The believer today (since Christ has taken care of the sin problem) that dies goes immediately to heaven, in the presence of the Lord. The unsaved dead go immediately to hell, waiting for the great white throne judgment for the lost. The Bible tells us that Hell is a place of torment. Hardly something that anyone would have the good fortune to "sleep" through! We can even see that in the story that Christ told, that Hell was a place of torment at that time.

Nothing has changed here. It is only man, with his innate sin nature, trying to find "wiggle room" in regards to God's Word, and the doctrine that is established there. When we die, there is no "soul sleep". Our souls either go to be present with the Lord, if we are saved, or directly to hell, waiting in torment. One group awaits for their new resurrected body exactly like Christ's as well as for a judgment of rewards. The other group awaits for their resurrection and for final judgment at the great white throne. There, the lost are judged by their own works. The Chrisitan will not be present at the Great White Throne to be judged. How do we know that? Because the Christian is trusting in the woks that Christ performed on his behalf at Calvary to save him. The Christian understands that he can never be righteous himself, that any righteousness that he has is imputed to him by Jesus Christ. The lost, on the other hand compare themselves to others and say--hay, I am better than he is because he is an adulterer and I am not. God does not look at us in this way. We either are saved or lost. We are lost if we have ever committed one sin, by thought or deed. We are saved ONLY by our belief in Jesus Christ, and upon his birth, death, and resurrection, and upon His work for our behalf.


"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".....FOR THE SAVED!
[2 Cor 5:6-9]

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/6/2 19:23





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