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linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Quote:
But why the blood of animals and not another human---



I don't know the answer to this and it is even more puzzling that there will be animal sacrifice in the millenium temple.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/30 18:09Profile









 Re:

Stever posts:

What you are being presented with here by Ormly and Linda is Pentecostal teaching.

The Pentecostal Church is behind the teaching that only those born AFTER the crucifixion are saved by Christ's shed blood.

They are also behind the false teaching that the Christian Church has replaced Israel in regards to God's plan for this earth. My Bible tells me not to be arrogant, because as a Christian I am just a branch that is grafted, that is on to the Jewish Tree.

What you are hearing on this thread is the Pentecostal slant, the Pentecostal false teaching of God's plan for the redemption of mandkind.

They will not answer the announcement of John the Baptist when he proclaimed:

Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

Not part of the world. Not certain people in the world. Not certain ethnic groups in the world. All sin of all the World is what he came to take away.

The only that Christ's work on the Cross at Calvary, and at the resurrection gets rid of anyone's sin is by our belief and by our faith in him. I, who live after the cross am saved from all sin, past, present and future once I come to belief in Him. Those that lived before the Cross are saved from all of their past sin by their belief in the Messiah, the seed of the woman, who would come and redeem fallen man to Himself.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/5/30 18:21
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Stever, I'm sorry to have to point this out but you've attributed to me beliefs that I don't have. I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, quite the opposite, and stated on one of the posts that Jesus Christ did come to take away the sins of the whole world. I have no idea how you came to all these conclusions but they are wrong.

I pray the Lord God will bless you and keep you, always.

Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/30 18:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

linda7 wrote:
Stever, I'm sorry to have to point this out but you've attributed to me beliefs that I don't have. I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, quite the opposite, and stated on one of the posts that Jesus Christ did come to take away the sins of the whole world. I have no idea how you came to all these conclusions but they are wrong.

I pray the Lord God will bless you and keep you, always.

Linda




I pray the Lord will reveal somethings to him that will bring rectification to his thinking.

:-Drm

 2006/5/30 19:04
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Salvation in the Old Testament, by what means?

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
What was salvation in the Old Testament?



[b]Note:[/b] in the paragraph below I do not use the word NON- BELIEFE for the term “Non” gives a whole other meaning to this statement,)
Unbelief - (noun): rejection of belief.
Non-belief - (noun): the absence of belief

All men are only condemned or justified by God in the New Testament for their rejection or accepting of Christ and in the Old Testament They were only condemned or justified by God for their unbelief and disobedience or belief and obedience to HIM. (See Romans & 1:18-20, 2:14, 15)
[b]Galatians 3:6[/b] [color=990000]Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[/color]

Job knew that there needed to have peace with GOD
[b]Job 9:33[/b] [color=990000]there is no mediator between us, who might lay his hand on both of us.[/color]
Even though there was none yet, Job had faith that HE would come
[b]Job 19:25[/b] [color=990000]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:[/color]

And also for the non-Jews
[b]Jonah 3:5[/b] [color=990000]So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.[/color]
Their fast was the obedience.
Before the flood they all believed for it was plain to all since Adam would have been alive with them, or he would have been known for his fame of being the first man ever created.

The forgivness was based on belief and obediance. God was accounting their forgiveness on what HE will do on the cross.

[b]Revelation 13:8[/b] [color=990000]And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in the Book of Life of [b]the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world[/b].[/color]

Quote:
In the Old Testament there was a prescribed way to have sins forgiven. What was it?


[b]Leviticus 4:20[/b] [color=990000]And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.[/color]
But:
[b]Hebrews 10:11[/b] [color=990000]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, [b]which can never take away sins:[/b][/color]

So it wasn't the blood and sacrifices that God was looking, but of who it forshadowed.

Quote:
was that salvation as mentioned in the NT?

This question is not clear, please restate the question.

Quote:
What was the difference, if any?



[b]Psalm 40:6-8[/b] [color=990000]Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
[b]:7[/b] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
[b]:8[/b] I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, [b]thy law is within my heart.[/b][/color]
[b]Hebrews 10:16[/b] [color=990000]This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;[/color]
The only difference is where the law is writhen.

The Old Testement is on two stone tablets.
The New Testement is writen on our hearts.

Quote:
If it was the Blood of Jesus shed as an atonement by the animals in the OT as you posit, why was it that righteous man died in his sin, perhaps waiting for the promise of Messiah? Why when he died he could not enter directly into heaven; directly into the presence of God?



If I may answer;
There was the fulfillment of everything to come yet.
[b]Luke 12:50[/b] [color=990000]But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished![/color]

That baptizm is his death and reserection, wich is that fulfillment.

[b]John 19:30[/b] [color=990000]When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, [b]It is finished:[/b] and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.[/color]

Before the cross, evrything was a foreshadowing, but, after the cross is the actuality.

[b]Isaiah 45:13[/b] [color=990000]I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, [b]and he shall let go my captives,[/b] not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.[/color]

The captives here are the ones is Abrahams boosm.

 2006/5/30 19:16Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Ormly and everyone else.

Ormly, you asked this question and I would like to share my own understanding if perhaps it will be helpfull,

Quote:
Why, at this time, did God appoint animals, and that only a select few, and not allow another human to do the thing? Why animals?



My understanding of this is that animals were offered becuase they were not moral agents that were liable for sin. There was a requirement for beasts to be put to death if they killed, but I do not believe this was for the animal's 'sin' of killing(Exodus 21:28-36 for example) at least not in the sense of guilt?

Becuase man is a moral agent responsible for his sins, and because each man has personal guilt, no man could die as a substitute for the sins of others as he would only be 'paying' for his own(See also Hebrews 7:27-28 in regards to this and the priesthood).

This following verse, particualrly the last part, perhaps speaks at least indirectly to this

Quote:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.



Also we see this in the offerings that were to be offered 'without blemish'; I think we can understand this as relating ultimately to being free from guilt and remember too that these sacrifices were pointing towards the final and consumate sacrifice of the Lord.

I hope this will be helpfull to the discussion.

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/5/30 19:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:

linda7 wrote:
Quote:
But why the blood of animals and not another human---



I don't know the answer to this and it is even more puzzling that there will be animal sacrifice in the millenium temple.

In His Love
Linda



Thank you, Linda.

I don't believe we can fathom the way God choses to do all things by the use of only our common sense, however, the scripture does give some things that we may glean for our enlightenment/enrichment into Jesus, Son of man who, by submiting to the Father of Himself now respresents us in heaven as the first of the first born Divine-Humans, full of what He was before anything was and that equal to the Father in all His Glory.(Jn17).

So why the animals sacrifices of the OT?

Hebrews 10:4 (NASB-U)
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The writer is correct and is also including the hereditary SIN stain of Adam which is the source of man's difficulties.

Job 33:9 (NASB-U)
'I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.

Job could very easily have been expressing the thoughts of many sacrificed animals.

Romans 5:13 (KJV)
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

These animals knew no law consequently there was no sin to bring guilt upon them. They indeed had a clean conscience, ergo, blameless creatures.

In essence these were the closest pure blood offerings that man could give God as offerings for his daily/yearly sins. As the scripture reminds us: "Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness for sin" -- but because it was NOT perfect human blood it could only cover the sin[s]of man not deal with the SIN question from Adam' trangression that demanded a new creation for a cure. Instead of destroying man when Adam sinned and beginning again God, put into motion His plan from eternity for reconciling man to Himself. Enter the Man Jesus, full of the Holy Ghost.

Though much more can be posted I hope this bit helps you....and others.

Warmly,

Ormly

PS. This should give a fresh perspective to our understanding of the Cain and Abel account.


 2006/5/30 19:57









 Re:

Absolutely, Chris -- and thanks for the insight. Thanks also for the added scripture that lends itself to this.

:-Drm

 2006/5/30 20:05









 Re:

Quote:

linda7 wrote:
Stever, I'm sorry to have to point this out but you've attributed to me beliefs that I don't have. I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, quite the opposite, and stated on one of the posts that Jesus Christ did come to take away the sins of the whole world. I have no idea how you came to all these conclusions but they are wrong.

I pray the Lord God will bless you and keep you, always.

Linda



xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

What I have posted addresses your belief, along with that of Ormly, that the Jews are not saved by Faith, and that the Christian is not saved by Faith.

My reponse is to your views that there is a DIVISION between Old Testament believers in Messiah, and New Testament believers in Messiah.

My response is to your beliefs in regards to the fact that some people are "righteous" in their own flesh.

Why not respond specifically to my post, and that of Logic's as well, point by point and counter it with Bible Scripture that supports your view.

Neither you nor Ormly is interested in doing that. Why don't you answer the Book of Hebrews, that tells us we have a great group of witnesses, urging us on to the finish line. Who are these witnesses? Abel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samson, and many, many others, all from the other side of the cross.

I really think that neither you nor Ormly read past the Gospels, and never read the Pauline Epistles. If you tell me that you read them, then I must assume that you do not understand the truths that are revealed to us there.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S.
ADDRESS THIS ONE, PLEASE:

Genesis 6:9-22
22. And Noah did everything as God commanded him.
—Genesis 6:22,

Psalm 46
1. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.
—Psalm 46:1-3,
Romans 1:16-17; 3:22b-31
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
—Romans 1:17, 3:22-24

Matthew 7:21-29
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

The law saved no one, but faith in the Messiah to come did save. Today, our faith in the Messiah that came saves us.


:-)

 2006/5/30 20:18
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Quote:
Though much more can be posted I hope this bit helps you ....and others


Yes, it does, thank you.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/31 5:25Profile





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