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 Salvation in the Old Testament, by what means?

What was salvation in the Old Testament? In the Old Testament there was a prescribed way to have sins forgiven. What was it and was that salvation as mentioned in the NT? What was the difference, if any? What was the prescribed way? Where did the righteous in the OT go upon death? What does the Bible say?

:-)rm

 2006/5/30 4:23
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re: Salvation in the Old Testament, by what means?

I believe they were saved by grace through faith just like we are today. They were cleansed by the blood of the lamb(Christ) just like we are today. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law. Neither are we. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and overcame the world-- and if we let Him, He will save us FROM SIN, He will fulfill the law in us, and He will overcome the world through us! :-) :-)


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/5/30 4:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Combat_Chuck wrote:
I believe they were saved by grace through faith just like we are today. They were cleansed by the blood of the lamb(Christ) just like we are today. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law. Neither are we. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and overcame the world-- and if we let Him, He will save us FROM SIN, He will fulfill the law in us, and He will overcome the world through us! :-) :-)



Thanks Chuck, but Jesus had not yet come to die that His Blood save them. So my questions remain.

Orm

 2006/5/30 6:01
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re: Salvation in the Old Testament, by what means?

Salvation in OT was by faith in God. Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. Same as NT. Sins were covered, atoned for, by a sin offering (Ex. 29.36).

The OT saints went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) sometimes called Abraham's Bosom, until Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world. The thief on the cross went to Paradise because Jesus had not yet died as the perfect sin offering. Jesus after death went to Sheol where the unrighteous were kept separate from the righteous, who were in Paradise. Until the death of Jesus, Paradise was in Abraham's Bosom. Jesus after death went to Sheol, to Paradise, then led captivity captive and took the OT saints to Heaven, where all who are saved now go.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/30 6:28Profile
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:

Combat_Chuck wrote:
I believe they were saved by grace through faith just like we are today. They were cleansed by the blood of the lamb(Christ) just like we are today. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law. Neither are we. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and overcame the world-- and if we let Him, He will save us FROM SIN, He will fulfill the law in us, and He will overcome the world through us! :-) :-)



Thanks Chuck, but Jesus had not yet come to die that His Blood save them. So my questions remain.

Orm


The lambs that the OT Jews sacrficed to God were a picture of the Saviour to come.

Think about this. What cleansing power does an lamb have, anyways? It's just an animal.

You are limiting God within time. God is not limited within time. He created time. "In the beginning...". God is outside of time, though He works within it.

Jesus is able to cleanse humanity by His blood 2000 years after His death; why can't he cleanse humanity 4000 years before His death?

Jesus died on that cross for the sins of the entire world, regardless of time-- Not only the people after Him.

I love the way Tony Campolo puts it,
Quote:
If I was to put you in a rocket and send you into outerspace, (This is just an illustration, not a suggestion-- you understand.) and gave you these very careful instructions, "Listen, you're to travel at 160,000 miles/per second relative to the rest of us-- and to come back in 10 years. Bernard would be there with his watch and his calendar, and every 24 hours he'd mark off a day, every 365 days he'd mark off a year. At the end of 10 years he would return. Now here's the interesting thing, If during that 10 years he was travelling at 160,000 miles/per second relative to the rest of us-- when he returned he would be 10 years older, but all the rest of us would be 20 years older. Isn't that weird? According to Albert Einstein, as you approach the speed of light, time becomes compressed. So travelling at 160,000 miles/per second relative to the rest of us, our 20 years would be compressed into 10 years of his time. If we could get Bernard travelling at 170,000 miles/per second, our 20 years would be compressed into one day of his time. That's wild. And here's the clincher, if we could get Bernard travelling at the speed of light-- now, we can't do that... because as you approach the speed of light, mass increases outward in a geometric progression to infinity. So, don't let anybody ever say, "You're fat!"-- just say, "I'm travelling too fast!". But if we could get you travelling at the speed of light without disintegration, this is what would happen-- all of human history would be compressed into the now, all of time would be compressed into an instantanious now.

You say, "Well why did you go through all of this?" For a very simple reason-- Because Jesus is God, when He was on the cross 2000 years ago. He was capable of experiencing time just like that. Because He is God, He is able to experience all of time, as though it was at the speed of light. The Scripture says this, "The thousand years with God are as a day, the day is a thousand years.". The very name of God, suggests that God always lives in the present. Think of His name, "I AM, that I AM." -- God never was, never will be. God always IS. When they asked Jesus about Himself, this is what He said, "Before Abraham was", you got it, "I AM."-- What He meant to say was this, "Before there was ever an Abraham thousands and thousands of years ago-- that was present tense with Me, I AM, the great I AM. I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am the Beginning and the End. Everything happens now with Me." The significance of that, is this-- that when Jesus was hanging from the cross, two-thousand years ago-- He was, and is, simultaneous with you sitting here, this evening. Jesus, on the cross, can look at you at this very moment.

There's an objective side, I was in an airport and there was an old guy, sound asleep, and a man was workin' the crowd, and got to this guy, shook him, he was a black guy, white hair-- you know, an old guy-- Looked up, he said, "Yeah, what is it?"-- and the guy said, "Excuse me, sir, are you saved?"-- the poor old guy said, "Yeah, yeah, I think I'm saved."-- He said, "Can you tell me exactly when you were saved?"-- the old guy said, "Well, not exactly... it was about two-thousand years ago..."-- And then he added, "I just found out about it recently."

You know, that's true isn't it? Two-thousand years ago, Jesus atoned for your sins. But let me tell you this, there's another way of looking at the cross. It's, this way-- that when He was on the cross two-thousand years ago, because He is God, two-thousand years does NOT seperate Him from you sitting here, and now. Because He's God, when He was on the cross, He could focus His eyes dirrectly on each one of you. He could focus His eyes, and look right into yours. And let me just tell you the truth-- He is doing it. He is doing it right now! Believe this, Jesus two-thousand years ago is looking straight at you, this very moment, because Jesus is God, and because He is God, He could experience every person, no matter where that person was placed in history, in His now. Jesus right now is looking at you, and if you'll let Him, He will reach out from the cross, like a spounge He will reach into your life and absorbe from you, drain out of you, ever dirty, filthy thing-- the dark side of you. And all of us have a dark side. Each of us has a dark side. Jesus at this moment, on the cross, will absorb into His own body, everything that dirty, and ugly and filthy-- and make it His own. Do you have any idea of what this means? The man who never sinned, the man who never sinned-- at this moment, is absorbing into His own personhood the sin of us all.



Anyways. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure some will. In fact, please, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm in no way dogmatic on this and in fact I really want to know the truth on these things.

Adam


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/5/30 6:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

linda7 wrote:
Salvation in OT was by faith in God. Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. Same as NT. Sins were covered, atoned for, by a sin offering (Ex. 29.36).

The OT saints went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) sometimes called Abraham's Bosom, until Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world. The thief on the cross went to Paradise because Jesus had not yet died as the perfect sin offering. Jesus after death went to Sheol where the unrighteous were kept separate from the righteous, who were in Paradise. Until the death of Jesus, Paradise was in Abraham's Bosom. Jesus after death went to Sheol, to Paradise, then led captivity captive and took the OT saints to Heaven, where all who are saved now go.

In His Love
Linda



I agree Linda. Lets open it up with the question why was the blood sacrifice required if faith in God satisfied the issue of justification? Could I do one without the other? I.e., offer sacrifices for the atoning of my sins in faithless-ness? If not, why was shed blood of (innocent) animals a thing God required --- at all?

:-(rm

 2006/5/30 7:07









 Re:

Stever posts:

Behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the WORLD.

John 1:29 tells us that Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the world. Please notice that it doesn't say "ONLY THE SIN AFTER THIS TIME" OR "ONLY THE SIN AFTER CHRIST DIES ON THE CROSS AND RESURRECTS FROM THE DEAD".

No, Jesus Christ came to take away all of the sin of the world, going back all the way in time to the beginning in the Garden to Adam, and all of the way forward to the end of time. All of my sin that I committed before I became a believer in Jesus Christ, and all of the sin that I commit after I became a believer.

All Sin, for all people that BELIEVE (have FAITH IN). Those that before the cross believed in the Messiah to come, and those after the cross that believe in the Messiah that came.

The New Testement is replete with teaching on this concept.

Romans is full of this teaching, specifically:
3 :29-30 and Chapter 4:1-9
" 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4
1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Our belief in God, Our Faith in God is the thing that makes us righteous in God's eyes, and therfore makes us acceptable for heaven. Because, if we look at the whole council of God, we find that our own righteousness is nothing but "filthy rags" to God.

Ephesian 2:16-22 tells us that Christ reconciles those before the cross with those after the cross, those people of "faith", to himself:

16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. AND ARE BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND THE PROPHETS, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CHIEF CORNER STONE; 21. IN WHOM ALL THE BUILDING FITLY FRAMED TOGETHER GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE OF THE LORD:
22. In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER FOR AN HABITATION OF GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT.

Hebrews Chapter 4 tells us that God supernaturally, before the foundation of the world, God took care of the sin problem for all that would believe on HIM.

"Hebrews 4:1-3

1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

In conclusion, we do not worship a God of Division, dividing those before the cross from those after it. We worship a God who loves us and has wanted to restore mankind to HIMSELF,BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. God, in His foreknowledge knew that man would sin, and some how, supernaturally, died for the sin of the World before the World began.

That is the God we serve, not some puny, man-made God that is placed in a box by the sin nature of man.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/30 12:38









 Re:

Quote:
The lambs that the OT Jews sacrficed to God were a picture of the Saviour to come.

Think about this. What cleansing power does an lamb have, anyways? It's just an animal.

You are limiting God within time. God is not limited within time. He created time. "In the beginning...". God is outside of time, though He works within it.

Jesus is able to cleanse humanity by His blood 2000 years after His death; why can't he cleanse humanity 4000 years before His death?

Jesus died on that cross for the sins of the entire world, regardless of time-- Not only the people after Him.



Chuck, If it was the Blood of Jesus shed as an atonement by the animals in the OT as you posit, why was it that righteous man died in his sin, perhaps waiting for the promise of Messiah? Why when he died he could not enter directly into heaven; directly into the presence of God?

Orm

 2006/5/30 13:55
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Quote:
Lets open it up with the question why was the blood sacrifice required if faith in God satisfied the issue of justfication?



As we know crimes against God require restitution be made. "There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood". From the following scriptures it seems God considers blood to be sacred.

"He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight". Psa 72:14

"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints." Psa 116:15

God has set it apart and reserved it for the purpose of atonement.

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement", Lev 17:11.

Quote:
Could I do one withut the other? i.e. offer sacrifices for the atoning of my sins in faithlessness?



Would there be any point? Without true faith in God, there is no heartfelt wish to be cleansed is there? I know pagans offer blood sacrifices but in the end they don't get life from it.

Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/30 17:26Profile









 Re:

I can't argue with any of that, Linda. But why the blood of animals and not another human -- after all both were stained by sin's penalty and God eventually allowed one Human we know to offer Himself. Why, at this time, did God appoint animals, and that only a select few, and not allow another human to do the thing? Why animals? There is something in this that, if I'm correct, will lead us somewhere in our thinking to enrich us in Christ Jesus.

Note: None of the animals offered were predatory by nature. To the contrary, they were quite the opposite.

:-)rm

 2006/5/30 17:45





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