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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Romans 8:1

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Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Romans 8:1

Interesting fact I noticed,

Romans 8:1,
"1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." -NASB (and all translations that rely on the Alexandrian, Minority Texts)

Romans 8:1,
"1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [b]who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/b]"-KJV (and all translations that rely on the Byzantine, Majority Texts)

That's quite a difference between the texts! I've heard 8:1 quoted by a dear brother and friend of mine, to make the point that there is no condemnation for the believer. But I disagree with him on this, though im not the type to make a stink out of it.......

The KJV (Byzantine text) seems to have a clear definition of what Paul is really saying-- that those who are "in Christ Jesus" are those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

I think there is no doubt about it that it is possible for the Christian to walk according to the flesh, atleast for a season. Which would also mean that it is possible for the believer to fall into condemnation.

That is, unless you believe that last part of 8:1 was added into the Byzantine later, and not originally what the Apostle Paul wrote. But I don't think so, I think it was removed from the Alexandrian text.

Lets consider the philosophy of a text mutilater for a moment. Both adding and subtracting from God's Word is EVIL, no doubt about it. But put yourself in the shoes of a text mutilator who was a copyist for a moment and think.

What reasons could you have for "adding" the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' to Romans 8:1?

And what reasons could you have for removing the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' from Romans 8:1?

I can't see why someone would add that last line for the life of me! But knowing the wickedness of the carnal human heart, I can see plenty of reason(s) to remove that last line!

(Not to mention Alexandria was the homebase of the Gnostics!)

What do you think?

+1 Points for the Byzantine, Majority, "Textus Receptus"?

What do you think Paul meant by walking "according to the flesh"? And "after the Spirit"?

And is it possible for the Christian to fall into condemnation? And what do you think Paul meant by "condemnation"?

(Lastly-- let's try not to go too far down the rabbit trail of 'byzantine VS alexandrian', unless it directly relates to Romans 8:1.)

Thanks, Adam


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Combat Chuck

 2006/5/27 3:09Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Condemnation

Hi Adam,

Wow, when you raise questions for discussion you ask a bunch of important ones! I wanted to repsond to one of your questions. Forgive my longer then normal response to this 2-part question…but I feel it is an important topic.

Quote:
And is it possible for the Christian to fall into condemnation? And what do you think Paul meant by "condemnation"?



I would think that Paul means something quite serious and dreadful by the word "condemnation." He is referring to the divine verdict, or judgement, that man has failed to live according to the responsibility given to him by God. Techincally speaking, condemnation is not the sentence or punishment, but God's perfect and holy judgement that men do indeed deserve punnishment.

Consider the word condemnation in this context.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

So, according to Christ himself, all men are already condemned. The verdict has been handed down that men are guilty of loving darkenss more then light. Sometimes we argue over the doctrine of "original sin" but none of us can dispute the unavoidable reality of “original condemnation.” Every person alive is born into this total and complete condemnation untill “…whosoever believeth in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Can a Christian, having followed after Christ, re-enter into their original condemnation? Our answer depends entirely on our concept of salvation. I feel scripture teaches that being born again is a transformation of our character and will through an inward death, a baptism into the Holy Spirit, and a resurrection into the person of Jesus Christ, who is God’s Word.

Furthermore I believe this incredible position in Christ’s person is just that…it is a position that does not depend on my feelings, experience, or good works to make it so. (Though we are exhorted to look for assuring evidence of this transaction, the assuring evidence we discover does nothing to secure the fact of this transaction.)

Here are some scriptures that lead to believe the way I do.

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13)

"When he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3)

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9)

Obviously my understanding is that biblical salvation is a change in our inner “substance”…our natures are clearly affected by a union with the Spirit of God. We remain man but we are the “New Man.” This inward change, which may be obscured often enough by my own fretting, is never the less the reason for my faith. This faith is different then placing my hope in:

a) a positive balance of works vs. sin for salvation. (False repentance or righteousness)
b)a mental condescension to Gospel theory for salvation. (False faith or profession)

I like what Watchman Nee says about the Christian. “If Christians fight for victory they can never win, but if they fight from victory they can never be defeated. Many times, Christians go through unnecessary periods of defeat because they have a concept of the Gospel that they are responsible to save themselves. (Yea, though few would admit this hopeless strategy. We are experts in the language of justification…but not the hope of it.) So when some fall, they stay down because they feel they have lost their hope…and many of their Christian friends have no help for them because they also are secretly looking to their own lives, instead of the life of Christ, for justification.

The reason I am going through these suppositions is to explain why I feel the answer to your question is “No”: a true Christian can not re-enter into condemnation because he has been changed. Our salvation is not based on us holding fast to a creed. Salvation is the person of Christ holding onto us…that is our only real creed! Abiding in Christ is absolute in it’s power. Pauls’ words to Timothy apply to all men.
This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

So, what I hear there, is that the plumbline we measure salvation by is Christ. Yet this is not some cheap mantra, because if Christ is surely not our ambition, then we are still in love with the world. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him"

Sadly, we do not always taste victory over this sin or that doubt...this much is self-evident. Still if we endure in Christ, which is something quite different then enduring through a sermon every Sunday, we will live and reign with Him. I say this because to endure with Him, means to abide with Him, which will most certainly take it's positive toll on our lives. In other words, if we trust in his power, not giving up, and continue to walk with Christ, we will see outward change in ourselves!

Now I used to find it disturbing to read, that he might deny us if we deny him. Yet I realized that this scripture is referring to those who never recognized the worthy Lordship of Jesus for themselves...they treated Him like a stranger...and so he will do likewise.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

How can a person return to the world, if in fact he has never left the world? Conversely, how can we endure with Christ, if we never knew him in the first place? And how can a person, once they have known the Lord, ever say they have not known him? All of these absurdities become commonplace today, I believe, because we have a commonplace anemic conception of “believing in Christ.” The true Christian is “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

This crucial aspect of the Gospel, is neither Arminian or Calvinistic in it’s origin. It is a mystery that is most practical to every single Christian.

Now, once I remember an unsaved colleague at work who knelt in an empty office with another Christian friend of mine, and with tears in his eyes confessed his need for Jesus. When I heard that he became a Christian I was of course glad, because he and I had talked about these things many times before. Yet, a week later, when we were having lunch, my joy turned to concern. When the topic of sexuality came up, he seemed surprised that I would assume he was quitting his immoral weekend behavior. I explained to him that God’s word was very clear about fornication! At this, my friend looked downcast because he wasn’t going to be following Christ after all. A month later the whole event had been “forgotten”. From then on whenever I would talk to him about the Lord, he simply smiled at me, like I was a child that never grew up in the real world, which told me he simply never tasted the living hope in Christ. To him my hope, my “claims”, seemed like pitiful unreality because he had said the “prayer” and nothing happened.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19)

I learned two things from that experience. One, belief and repentance are mixed into the same hope in the heart for a Christian. We may emphasize one over the other in various stages of our walks, but I believe they are never separate. To dissect one from the other, and analyze them independently is futile academic method that will always produce misunderstanding. (Try understanding fire on just the basis of either oxygen or fuel by themselves.) Two, I realized I wasn’t taking my own walk serious enough, because untill the lost taste and see for themselves that the Lord is Good, we might be all they have to taste. (Sobering.)

In conclusion, condemnation is reserved for those who have not been born again. I feel if we understand the biblical history of being born again, we will discover that such a change is unimaginably deeper, and infinitely more robust then our own trembling definitions of faith and works…and as such I do not believe that a true born again Christian can return to condemnation.

Well, I hope this has been useful. I doubt I have the best answer to your important question. I only attempted to explain my own journey on this topic.

Blessings,

MC



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Mike Compton

 2006/5/27 5:46Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Romans 8:1

Hi Adam,

Here is an old related thread you might be interested to glean through; [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5514&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Live / Walk in the Spirit[/url]

Quote:
Now, once I remember an unsaved colleague at work who knelt in an empty office with another Christian friend of mine, and with tears in his eyes confessed his need for Jesus. When I heard that he became a Christian I was of course glad, because he and I had talked about these things many times before. Yet, a week later, when we were having lunch, my joy turned to concern. When the topic of sexuality came up, he seemed surprised that I would assume he was quitting his immoral weekend behavior. I explained to him that God’s word was very clear about fornication! At this, my friend looked downcast because he wasn’t going to be following Christ after all. A month later the whole event had been “forgotten”. From then on whenever I would talk to him about the Lord, he simply smiled at me, like I was a child that never grew up in the real world, which told me he simply never tasted the living hope in Christ. To him my hope, my “claims”, seemed like pitiful unreality because he had said the “prayer” and nothing happened.



[i]They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.[/i] Luk 8:13

Quote:
[u]If[/u] we endure



Continuity, continuance ... consistency, not in 'perfection' but in the sense of always getting back up again, whatever the case;

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:
1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Still have the reverberations of Richard Owen Roberts drifting through;

"[i]It's not how one begins the Christian life, but how he finishes.[/i]"

This is largely in response to the idea of the OSAS model but it also has lead to another range of thought of late: Been musing on just how much unnecessary trouble we can bring upon ourselves and others even, by way of casting so much into the future by a want of certain settlements today.
It is a bit different than a matter of 'assurance' and certainly [i]"Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.[/i]" Mat 6:34 comes into play. But am thinking more broadly and in general terms. "Prophecy" as in a more spurious and decidedly "Christian fortune teller" motif, where there is a created anxiety over things that largely never come to pass. Fears and wasted energy over even current event's and their [i]possibilities[/i]. As example, all the over wrought attention to "The Da Vinci Code" (Well done here saints, barely a trickle of interest) which will be tomorrows forgotten controversy not unlike all the uproar over "The Passion". That is not to say everything of course... But to bring it back to the original question of "[i]is it possible for the Christian to fall into condemnation?[/i]" seems similar as it is in one sense a hypothetical or 'future' looking question. Is it possible? I would say most certainly...

In the end will it be;

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not _____

Or in other words, justifying ourselves, or;

Luk 18:13 And the tax collector, standing far away, would not so much as lift his eyes towards heaven, but beat on his chest, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'

Which is answered in;

Luk 18:14 I say to you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

Am thinking in sentiment and attitude of the heart here. Of course there is an assurance, but an assurance that never takes advantage or presumes anything.

A great deal of this comes round to a false idea of settlement without continuation, of "saying" or believing certain facts and pronouncing or giving a certificate of completion before going to school so to speak. Graduation is not until death.

One word continually hinges on these matters throughout scripture:

[i]If[/i]


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Mike Balog

 2006/5/27 9:49Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 8:9-15 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Since it is mentioned again in Romans 8:5-6 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I guess it would be not an addition, but a oneness with the rest of the text.

If you are in the flesh, not saved. If you are in the Spirit, saved. Romans 8:9-15 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

You are save or you are not saved. We are in the Spirit, those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, we are the ones that walk in the Spirit. For we have the Spirit of Christ and the Promised Comforter born again in us and baptized into the Holy Spirit and into Christ.


Even devils and demon's believe the Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but they do not have the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit birthed in them. They are condemned already. Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Either we have light or we don't. With Christ in us Who is the light, there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In Christ, we are walking in the Spirit. Not my choice but His. Our problem is we don't believe it.

In Christ Jesus: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/5/27 14:13Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I would say that about the KJV only people.

I remember falling inti KJV onlyicsm and I sarted to doubt all Bible vesions including the KJV, I started to study greek so I would be able to read the origenal greek. But then I found that there was so many diferent greek texts and then I was starting to wounder if I would ever know the true WORD of GOD.

I finaly settled that all versions are ok.

 2006/5/27 19:06Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

The Holy Spirit will keep His Words true, since Christ is the Word and He The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of Christ. If a translation is off, it will be revealed in the believer. A direct translation not a paraphrase.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/5/27 21:11Profile
Combat_Chuck
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Yes, I agree with you. I just noticed that the last phrase is is also in VS. 4. So I guess one could make a strong case that the byzantine text copyist looked down a line while copying and repeated the text. Or, Paul simply repeated himself in verse 4-- either way, it is not crucial. The truth is still in both schools of manuscripts. So basically, I was straining a gnat.

Please, disregard my thinking about byzantine VS alexandrian and romans8:1 :)

Quote:

Logic wrote:
I would say that about the KJV only people.

I remember falling inti KJV onlyicsm and I sarted to doubt all Bible vesions including the KJV, I started to study greek so I would be able to read the origenal greek. But then I found that there was so many diferent greek texts and then I was starting to wounder if I would ever know the true WORD of GOD.

I finaly settled that all versions are ok.


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Combat Chuck

 2006/5/27 23:19Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Romans 8:1

Quote:

Combat_Chuck wrote:
Lets consider the philosophy of a text mutilater for a moment. Both adding and subtracting from God's Word is EVIL, no doubt about it. But put yourself in the shoes of a text mutilator who was a copyist for a moment and think.

What reasons could you have for "adding" the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' to Romans 8:1?

And what reasons could you have for removing the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' from Romans 8:1?

I can't see why someone would add that last line for the life of me! But knowing the wickedness of the carnal human heart, I can see plenty of reason(s) to remove that last line!



I must admit that verse was one of the major reason behind me dropping the NIV (mind you, it does contain it in the footnotes). However, in order to play "devils advocate" (read what you want into that), you may note that the "walk not after the flesh" clause is found later in vv3-4.

Quote:
[b]Romans 8:3-4 (KJV)[/b] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.




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Aaron Ireland

 2006/5/28 3:14Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Romans 8:1

Quote:
What do you think Paul meant by walking "according to the flesh"? And "after the Spirit"?



The footnote in the recovery version says:

"The condemnation mentioned here is subjective, in our conscience, and is the result of our being inwardly defeated by the evil law of the indwelling sin, as described in 7:17-18,20-24. The blood of the crucified Christ is the remedy for objective condemnation (3:25). The Spirit of life, who is Christ... and who is in our spirit, is the remedy for subjective condemnation."

Here the footnote points out that there are two types of condemnation. One is objecive and relates to our standing with God which was dealt with by Christ on the Cross and His blood is sufficient for all our sins just as Romans 8:33 "who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. Who is He that condemns?

The other condemnation is subjective related to our conscience and our experience. This condemnation comes in because we are defeated by the law of sin and death in our members. IN other words we have a sense of condemnation because of our failure.

But as we learn to walk by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus we are set free from the law of sin and death and our conscience is liberated from experiential condemnation.

This is not related to eternal life, or our justification and standing, but related to our day to day experience as the whole of Chapter 8 is regarding our experience of Christ as the indwelling Spirit of Life.

So whether you take the Byzentine text or others, the meaning is still the same. It is by walking according to and by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that we experience a liberated conscience because we are liberated from that which brings in the sense of condemnation. That is from the law of sin and death and we enjoy the victorious overcomming life of the crucified and resurrected Christ in our spirit and we have the testimony of a good conscience.

Graftedbranch

 2006/5/30 16:41Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Romans 5 deals with our objective standing before God. It shows us that condemnation came upon us by the disobedience of the one man, Adam. Even so justification came in by the obedience of the One, Jesus Christ. So our justification is not based in our personal obedience but in the obedience of Christ who is the Second Man.

Though Romans 5,6, and the 1st part of 7 do touch on our experience, it is primarily dealing with the objective facts of our redemption and union with Christ.

But the last half of 7 and chapter 8 deal with our experience and how all these objective realities are enjoyed.

7 deals with our defeated condition in ourselves and our inability to fullfill God's requirements in ourselves because though we would aspire to what is good, there is a law in our flesh which rises up and takes us captive and therefore we are defeated and cry out, "wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me?" This defeated condition brings us into condemnation. NOt objective condemnation which is dealt with by Christ on the Cross, but subjective condemnation in our conscience.

And God's answer is in Romans 8, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. This is the solution to the problem in Romans 7. We turn from ourselves and look to Christ and live by the Law of Life. This Law of the Spirit of Life is just Christ HImself who indwells us.

And in this Spirit of Life is all of the reality of Romans 5, 6, and 7 regarding justification, our union with Christ in HIs death to sin and the flesh, His death to the Law and our death in HIm, and His victorious resurrection Life. All these things are known and applied to us by the indwelling Spirit bringing us in experience into these realities.

Apart from the indwelling Spirit, though we be justified and "in Christ" we do not experience this. It is only by the Spirit that these things are ours in experience. He is the exectutor of all the things of Christ.

It is only by the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that we experience liberation from sin and from the law. Only as we walk by the Spirit and mind the spirit do we find the just requirements of the law fullfilled in us. We actually find the Law lived out in us in our experience because it is Christ who lives in us.

Graftedbranch



 2006/5/30 17:16Profile





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