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Combat_Chuck
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Be sure to check out Bob Thompsons' excellent article on the subject, [url=http://wor.org/books/g/Gaplaw1.htm]The Gap of Lawlessness[/url] :-)

Beware though, this guy will NOT tickle your ears. :-x


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Combat Chuck

 2006/5/26 17:32Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
RobertW's: This leaves us with a need to be 'dead' to the Law of Moses, but emancipated from the slavery of the law of Sin (Romans 6:7).



I need to correct myself here. A person can't be emancipated from a 'law' can they? They need to be emancipated from [u]S[/u]in. This is Sin 'personified'.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/26 22:16Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: a question

Quote:
This is Sin 'personified'.


Robert, what's this?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/26 23:10Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Check your bedside manner

Some of you make great theologians but poor doctors, or maybe efficient doctors with poor bedside manner. You hand the ten-pound medical textbook to your patient and say “Here, figure it out!” But you don’t sit down with him and try to understand him. It seems a few of you are not hearing me very well.

Quote:
Beware though, this guy will NOT tickle your ears.


CC, why the posturing? Do you think I need the warning? I wonder if you equate empathy with ear-tickling.

Now, along with that wee bit of chastisement, of course, I realize firsthand how easy it is to go grab for all those advice packages that sit right ready on the surface of our minds. That’s the risk of being diligent students, experts at God’s holy law. We are quick to dispense heavy doses.

A sidenote: I suspect that if God assigned to his people the job of writing the Law, we’d end up with a 10-pound manual of things to quit doing. But all that would do is make one think about law with every step they took. It’s like trying to lose weight. All you think about is food. So the ‘doctor’ puts his “patients” under the curse of the law. And that just makes them tired, worn out, defeated, and sicker than ever.

At this point in my search, I found one preacher who stands out in this topic of spiritual liberty. [url=http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/victorious.htm]Earnest O'Neill[/url] clearly answers my original question, “When is one really free from law?” in a [url=http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/romans/index.html]Romans[/url] sermon (9:31):

All unrighteousness and sin comes from doubting the Father’s ability to fully love us and meet our needs….. You are free from the law when you have died with Jesus to every source for what you need but Jesus.

People are still in bondage to law when they are preoccupied with being right rather than with being right with God. The tragedy is that people call this being free from the law. They say they are free from the law. However, their friends would say that they are free from righteousness, because they don’t have Christ-likeness in them.
etc

How do we know when we are really liberated?
Or maybe it’s better to ask:
How do we know if we are not? Is that the way we prefer to stay?

It has to do with trust. “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under supervision of the law.” Gal. 3:25

So I ask the Lord to reveal to me the little fragments of doubt that only he can see. That is the path to freedom. I’m going for it!


Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/27 10:02Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Defining Law

Hi Diane,

You are a precious soul... Not sure what to add here other than I can hear you.

Both,

Quote:
Some of you make great theologians but poor doctors, or maybe efficient doctors with poor bedside manner. You hand the ten-pound medical textbook to your patient and say “Here, figure it out!” But you don’t sit down with him and try to understand him. It seems a few of you are not hearing me very well.



And

Quote:
CC, why the posturing? Do you think I need the warning? I wonder if you equate empathy with ear-tickling.


This later one, it may not have had any particular direction towards you personally ... (Did note the "wee bit" as well)

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; [u]that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[/u]
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Without adding to the weight and bogging down even more... Somewhere had attempted a dismantling of just what the "Law" is at it's root. Before the variations and the law of Moses there is a 'law';

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Doubt any of this is telling you that which you do not know and maybe the musings I had on it prior was that the root is one of forthcoming alone before God. The "law" of honesty in the core of our beings. The "law" of love as God designed it reciprocally. The "law" of "[i]In spirit and in truth[/i]"...

Maybe the too simple answer to your original question is that we are free from the law when we have all but forgotten there is any law in place.


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Mike Balog

 2006/5/27 10:58Profile
Combat_Chuck
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Quote:
CC, why the posturing? Do you think I need the warning? I wonder if you equate empathy with ear-tickling.


No, No, No, No, No!!! :-o

I was not making a comment with any barbs or any pointing fingers at anybody. :-(

I'm sorry to have been misunderstood that way. I wasn't aiming that at anyone in particular. What I meant to get across is that Bob T. is a great teacher, who says things straight. :-) :-) :-)


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Combat Chuck

 2006/5/27 13:28Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: ahhh

Quote:
What I meant to get across is that Bob T. is a great teacher, who says things straight



Ahh, oh! So you were not talking about yourself but the author. I'm so glad! Now I can sit back and relax. Your first word, "Beware!" put me on the alert - like .. brace yourself, sis.. it's a-comin'!

Actually, I thought the article was insightful, though lengthy. It (or rather, Bob T.) exposed a big gap in our theological presentation - which leaves countless in a dreadful foggy quagmire, where there is neither law nor Spirit to guide their conscience. It reminds us that Christ is the missing ingredient. Is that what you were trying to say by posting it, CC?

Have you considered that this present-day evolvement may be God's way of dealing with mankind? After all while we cling to the security of law (including our Bible knowledge), and while it's working, we will continue to trust in self and fellowman.

Misery may very well be the precursor of victory. I speak from personal experience.



Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/27 14:02Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Diane,

I came across this bit of insightful writing from Larry Crabb that I thought fit the theme of this thread. It really captures the vague seduction for the Christian to return to the law, recast as “biblical principles for living”.

The author's premise is simple. In his own words...

----------------------------------------------

When any ambition other then drawing close to God assumes first-place in our hearts, whether the ambition is blatantly self-serving, or clearly Kingdom-advancing, we’re living the Old Way.

“…The moment we think any blessing other the nearness to God is essential to life and is therefore promised now, we’ve chosen to live the Old Way….Preaching good sermons, raising good kids, building good friendships, developing good ministries, running good businesses---they all become activities of the flesh. The pressure is on. We have to get it right to get what we want.

Do you want a good marriage?
Communicate like this.
Do you want Godly children?
Raise them by these principles.
Do you want significant ministry?
Become this kind of leader.
Do you want spiritual maturity?
Practice these disciplines.
Do you want financial stability?
Follow biblical principles of stewardship.
Life will work! That’s the promise. Get it right! That’s the method.

Read to a person in trouble... Follow principles, expect blessings, keep at it. Your'e under the Law of Linearity." ...Tell him it’s a word from God. But as he responds with excitement, read him another word from God. “Cursed is everyone that does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Biblical principles are reduced to the basic principles of the world when they’re followed in order to gain the Better Life we demand. Biblical principles remain biblical principles when they become guided opportunities to express to others the character of Christ. They’ve always been commands to be obeyed, but when we’re in touch with our new hearts, they’re also seen as privileges we long to seize.

It’s a surprising thought, and not a little disturbing, that obedience to biblical principles can be wrong. But when doing right is a strategy to get what we want, our energy is pride and focus is self.

“Find a way to get on top of life,” the dragon whispers encouragingly. “You don’t have to feel hard pressed, perplexed, persecuted, struck down. Have you been to the latest conference on the spiritual life? Perhaps you should read the best-selling book that promises to unveil the secret of a happy family. There’s a new therapist in town who seems to be helping a lot of people move beyond their depression into a much more satisfying life. And prayer. There are some intriguing new approaches you might want to consider. They seem to work.”

The dragon sounds like a preacher, like a Bible teacher who knows his audience and knows how to make the Bible relevant. He begins with religious talk that not only could but often does come from a pulpit. But it’s only a small step to encouraging divorce or pornography or ethical compromise, because if we live for the satisfactions of a better life, the pleasures of sin will seem quite reasonable when that life falls apart.

The Old Way is really all about me. It’s about my emotional health, my spiritual maturity, my soul’s satisfaction, my circumstantial happiness, my meaningful ministry, my business, or family success. It teaches me to be savvy, to know how to navigate through life so things work out pretty well. The savvy required to be effective replaces the wisdom needed to honor God. If we raise our children this way, that will never happen. If it does, we’ll determine what went wrong and fix it.

I hear a sweet sounding voice, a kind-sounding voice, a persuasive voice, that reminds me how lonely and disappointed I am and how deeply I long to feel good about myself, to be honored, to fit somewhere, to feel significant and secure. That voice encourages that and me to believe that those longings can be satisfied they should be; that the only thing separating the spiritual path from the secular is how I go about arranging for their satisfaction.


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/5/27 20:10Profile









 Re: When is one free from the law?


Robert,

I found your post, including the quote from Tozer, most illuminating. Thank you.

Quote:
Paul's cry in Romans is not after power to fulfill the simple morality of the Ten Commandments, but after inward holiness which the law could not impart....

To teach that the insufficiency of the law lay in man's moral inability to meet its simple demands on human behaviour is to err most radically.

If the law could not be kept, God is in the position of laying upon mankind an impossible moral burden and then punishing them for failure to do the impossible. I will believe anything I find in the Bible, but I do not feel under obligation to believe a teaching which is obviously a mistaken inference and one, furthermore, which both contradicts the Scriptures and outrages human reason.

These points in particular, gave me a view of the differences between the Covenants, which I have not seen put as simply.

Was Tozer really saying that the Old Covenant ritual did [u]not[/u] construe forgiveness from God towards His people?

I have never thought there was NO FORGIVENESS under the OC, but, I see that 'covering' of sin, falls far short of 'cleanses from all sin' (1 John 1:7)

 2006/5/28 7:54









 Re: When are we free from the law?


Hi MC,

Your quote from Larry Crabb raised my eyebrows at this point:

Quote:
It’s a surprising thought, and not a little disturbing, that obedience to biblical principles can be wrong.

And his allusions to 'whispers', 'sounds like a preacher' and 'I hear a sweet sounding voice, a kind-sounding voice, a persuasive voice..' brought Paul's remark to mind: 'There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them without signification.' (1 Cor 14:10)

I'm glad I encountered that [i]brand of believing[/i], that God has a [i]will[/i] for my life, when I was still in my teens. Although I may now may think I made some bad or big mistakes, I did believe I was doing His will over the really big decisions. These threw in my face, other truths about myself, which were not welcome, but, had to be addressed. How glad I am, then, that I did [i]try[/i] to hear His voice. Latterly, that [i]did[/i] mean, listening only to Him, and truly, no-one could have accused me of outward conformity to biblical principles. That's not supposed to sound arrogant. I'm just trying to say He talked me through some difficult times, where a knowledge of 'the law' was not the answer.

 2006/5/28 8:17





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